Anderson in NY Times, March 20, 1910

[perrymason]

I bet Mike"s squirming a bit after that reposte Ap

Quite the contrary my lady...as you saw. And I count you among that enviable group Nats.

My best as always

[Natalie Severn]

Quite the contrary my lady...as you saw. And I count you among that enviable group Nats.

My best as always

Thankyou Mike----you are not so bad yourself you know!

[perrymason]

Thankyou Mike----you are not so bad yourself you know!

Yeah......I know.

Cheers sweetie

[Scott Nelson]

Its time to stop being impeded making any progress due to nonsensical arguments and whimsical dismissals of potentially vital information.

What "potentially vital information" has been presented on this thread?

[perrymason]

What "potentially vital information" has been presented on this thread?

I wasnt referring to this thread specifically Chris....as you've Im sure noticed there have been posts that have nothing at all to do with the thread premise directly, but have everything to do with what can be deemed trustworthy from sources such as Sir Robert.

What can be believed, what should be accepted, and why inconsistencies create a red flag are things that all students of the crimes should be focused on...not what we have been told, not some opinions that defy logic, and not obviously flawed perceptions like the Canonical Group was created by using the physical and circumstantial evidence of the cases.

I cannot embrace a "Suspects" list like in the MM with a straight face...nor should anyone here.

I cannot endorse an idea that comments like "low class Jews" and "one of their own kind" as a follow up arent blatantly prejudicial...since they were made without any substantive supporting evidence.

Thats the crux...its not a point here or there....its 121 years of GIGO.

We should be, and are, more capable than that I think.

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

I was thinking that if Anderson thought an Irishman was responsible, or an Italian, and American, an Indian... anything, he would have said the same thing about them wanting to protect their own. The British, and especially the educated upper classes thought of themselves as superior to everyone else (this was not just the British domain either). This was the height of British imperialism and society was so stratified that everyone took great pains to point out the inferiority of everyone who the believed was of a lower status level than they were. My point is, there would have been disparagement on any group of people that were suspect. Why were lower class, Polish Jews at the top of the list? Some of it may have had to do with despisement from the established Anglo-Jewry as well as general suspicions based upon the social and complexional make-up of the East End. If the East End had a preponderance of Mexicans, for example, because of sheer volume of people, wouldn't we be talking about Ruizes rather than Kosminskis?

Cheers,

Mike

[jason_c]

I wasnt referring to this thread specifically Chris....as you've Im sure noticed there have been posts that have nothing at all to do with the thread premise directly, but have everything to do with what can be deemed trustworthy from sources such as Sir Robert.

What can be believed, what should be accepted, and why inconsistencies create a red flag are things that all students of the crimes should be focused on...not what we have been told, not some opinions that defy logic, and not obviously flawed perceptions like the Canonical Group was created by using the physical and circumstantial evidence of the cases.

I cannot embrace a "Suspects" list like in the MM with a straight face...nor should anyone here.

I cannot endorse an idea that comments like "low class Jews" and "one of their own kind" as a follow up arent blatantly prejudicial...since they were made without any substantive supporting evidence.

Thats the crux...its not a point here or there....its 121 years of GIGO.

We should be, and are, more capable than that I think.

Best regards

"Yet another "light" in dark, & not
generally known, metropolitan spots has
flashed across my mind: --
Eyre Street Hill -- Clerkenwell -- where
there is a large colony of Italians who
are mostly ice-cream vendors by day,
&, not infrequently, stabbers & shootists
by night."


Perrymason,

What are your thoughts on the above?

[perrymason]

"Yet another "light" in dark, & not
generally known, metropolitan spots has
flashed across my mind: --
Eyre Street Hill -- Clerkenwell -- where
there is a large colony of Italians who
are mostly ice-cream vendors by day,
&, not infrequently, stabbers & shootists
by night."


Perrymason,

What are your thoughts on the above?

Im not sure of what youre asking me to comment on Jason....Clerkenwell obviously jumped out at me in relation to Fenian train station bombings that killed innocent people...could you phrase it slightly less "poetically"?

Mike I have no doubt that you have pegged Anderson correctly. Which in no way casts serious concerns with what I said regarding his overt prejudice in relation to Jewish people. He may well have thought of himself as better than many ethnicity's or nationality's, many of the "proper" society demographic of that era might have felt the same.

Best regards gents

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

I think Anderson was just a creature of his times, and no different than any of the other station-hungry and status conscious men in any office.
Today we would call them all elitist, racist, and possibly sexist, but then... just like everyone else. My point with is is to show that these traits don't necessarily point him or anyone else in the direction of some sort of plot or conspiracy or cover-up that pointing fingers at his prejudices have been doing on this and other threads. His reasons for suspecting a Jew are quite probably just because there were many Jews in the East End and the newer immigrants were not satisfied with the working conditions and some tended toward anarchism, which to Anderson's mind, may have been a worse idea than murder. I think the Jews were the new Irish is all. That would have been reason enough to have them suspect without any plots or conspiracies.

Cheers,

Mike

[jason_c]

Im not sure of what youre asking me to comment on Jason....Clerkenwell obviously jumped out at me in relation to Fenian train station bombings that killed innocent people...could you phrase it slightly less "poetically"?

Mike I have no doubt that you have pegged Anderson correctly. Which in no way casts serious concerns with what I said regarding his overt prejudice in relation to Jewish people. He may well have thought of himself as better than many ethnicity's or nationality's, many of the "proper" society demographic of that era might have felt the same.

Best regards gents

It was MM's attitude to this large colony of Italians I was asking you to comment on. So many Italian stereotypes in one single paragraph - ice cream vendors, shooters and stabbers. Is this an example of MM's prejudice? Or a sincerely held and justified opinion of his about these Italians?

[perrymason]

It was MM's attitude to this large colony of Italians I was asking you to comment on. So many Italian stereotypes in one single paragraph - ice cream vendors, shooters and stabbers. Is this an example of MM's prejudice? Or a sincerely held and justified opinion of his about these Italians?

Thanks for that clarification Jason ,... and I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again.

The thing that has held some people from acknowledging this about him is that some feel it might seem to appear as representative of the force itself and their feelings towards the neighborhoods like one the murders happened in. I personally dont believe that is in evidence the way his personal attitudes were at all.

What if Anderson took this position publicly to specifically take some heat and mis-direct some attention? If he did so to protect the secrecy of the Intelligence community with which he is so aligned and the government he worked so "tirelessly" for.....gee....maybe that might be Knighthood material.

My best regards Jason

[robhouse]

"I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again."

Continuing the noble tradition of this thread in blaming Anderson for things he never said (see the NYT article etc).

The "elitist" quote is by Macnaghten.

[perrymason]

"I would have to agree with you that's probably just Anderson's elitism peeking out again."

Continuing the noble tradition of this thread in blaming Anderson for things he never said (see the NYT article etc).

The "elitist" quote is by Macnaghten.

I wasnt aware that that particular word had been used to describe him before Rob.

I think all we can argue about is the perception of context anyway, the words themselves dont need to be redefined.

Best regards

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Jason cited an excerpt from a 1907[?] letter from Macnaghten to George R. Sims in which he also detailed the names and dates of the C5 murders.

It sounds pretty much like a statement of fact. Eyre Street Hill was the centre of London's Italian immigrant population. They specialised in making ice cream in the most cramped and disgusting of conditions, turned begging into an organized art form and their penchant for barrel-organ music raised questions of public nuisance in parliament. Random violence and stabbings were no stranger to the area, although I must admit to not yet having discovered a shooting.

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

It sounds pretty much like a statement of fact. Eyre Street Hill was the centre of London's Italian immigrant population. They specialised in making ice cream in the most cramped and disgusting of conditions, turned begging into an organized art form and their penchant for barrel-organ music raised questions of public nuisance in parliament. Random violence and stabbings were no stranger to the area, although I must admit to not yet having discovered a shooting.

Hi Simon

Here's Eyre Street Hill back in the days. The street is still there though few of these buildings still exist. The pub on the left is still there however.