Anderson in NY Times, March 20, 1910

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stephen,

Thank you. Great photograph.

But hark, what's that sound I hear?

"Just one Cornetto . . ."

Regards,

Simon

[Stephen Thomas]

But hark, what's that sound I hear?

"Just one Cornetto . . ."

'Just one honour killing'

[Simon Wood]

Especially for Norma

Hi Norma,

This is the letter I was attempting to email to you.

While I was checking out a lead on Anderson's activities while "on holiday in Switzerland" you pointed me to a line in Christy Campbell's Fenian Fire, page 309, regarding the Parnell Letter forger Richard Pigott—

"Davitt had indeed run down Pigott—if not literally: the 'rascal' had departed Paris for Dublin on the 4th [October 1888], the day Robert Anderson also left the French capital."

This lip-smacking coincidence spurred me to dig deeper, and in the end I discovered it was not true. Although it was not impossible for the two men to have met in Paris, Pigott must have left the city a few days earlier.

Pigott lived at 11 Sandycove Avenue, Kingstown, Ireland, and on 3rd October 1888 had written the following letter—



And on 4th October from the same address he wrote to Messrs. Lewis & Lewis, solicitors, regarding expenses to cover his appearance at the Parnell Special Commission. Lewis & Lewis replied on 5th October 1888. These last two letters are in the Special Commission transcript.

There were a number of errors in Fenian Fire. They were unimportant in themselves, but make all the difference when trying to nail the scrawny butts of slippery customers like Pigott and Anderson.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou Simon-very interesting,

This information also goes some way further to fit the jigsaw on who was being lent on over all this.Kilkenny born Patrick Casey,a British agent - according to Davitt- had been in Paris exile since 1870 [ Christy Campbell /Fenian Fire].The book also states he was offered a large sum by The Times to appear for the Defence [ie against Parnell and Davitt]at the Special Commission of October 1888.It seems likely Robert Anderson would have had meetings with him in Paris too about the Special Commission and his role in those Times articles...

Best

Norma

[The Good Michael]

Jason cited an excerpt from a 1907[?] letter from Macnaghten to George R. Sims in which he also detailed the names and dates of the C5 murders.

It sounds pretty much like a statement of fact.

Simon, but then aren't most statements by police officials just statements of fact? They, if asked, would never say that they were ethnocentric or racist, or just superior by virtue of their Britishness. They certainly would have thought themselves superior via their nationality however. To them, disparaging remarks against any immigrant population, though distasteful and even horrible (for most of us) today, were just statements of "fact". There are no awful secrets here, and murders are just murders, as horrendous as they may have been.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

To them, disparaging remarks against any immigrant population, though distasteful and even horrible (for most of us) today, were just statements of "fact".

In much the same way that the immigrants themsleves weren't immune to being disparaged and "class-discriminated" within their own community. As I wrote elsewhere, it's quite probable that a "low-class Polish Jew" would have been described similarly even by his own co-religionists.

[The Good Michael]

As I wrote elsewhere, it's quite probable that a "low-class Polish Jew" would have been described similarly even by his own co-religionists.

Absolutely no doubt about this. Whenever and wherever there are multiple class distinctions, everyone makes sure they have someone to blame. No graffito pun intended, though...

I see this in Korea every day as a product of divisions caused by adherence to an archaic form of Confucianism.

Cheers,

Mike

[Howard Brown]

In much the same way that the immigrants themselves weren't immune to being disparaged and "class-discriminated" within their own community. As I wrote elsewhere, it's quite probable that a "low-class Polish Jew" would have been described similarly even by his own co-religionists.

Its more than probable Sammy...its a fact. Granted this (excerpt from an) article appeared in 1890 and from within the US, but its remarkable that had the author of these sentiments been a good ol' Welshman, he'd have faced a lot of opposition to his remarks. Some would even call it anti-Semitic:



And as Sam can tell everyone...we've found references ( whereas at first I was at a loss to ) to the adjective low class in regard to Germans, Irish, even Froggies in contemporary literature.

[perrymason]

In much the same way that the immigrants themselves weren't immune to being disparaged and "class-discriminated" within their own community. As I wrote elsewhere, it's quite probable that a "low-class Polish Jew" would have been described similarly even by his own co-religionists.

Its more than probable Sammy...its a fact. Granted this (excerpt from an) article appeared in 1890 and from within the US, but its remarkable that had the author of these sentiments been a good ol' Welshman, he'd have faced a lot of opposition to his remarks. Some would even call it anti-Semitic:



And as Sam can tell everyone...we've found references ( whereas at first I was at a loss to ) to the adjective low class in regard to Germans, Irish, even Froggies in contemporary literature.

In all fairness Howard, all that really proves is that its possible much of the use of the adjectives in other regional cases was just an example of more widespread prejudice...the nationalities you mentioned were also immigrant slum dwellers in the metropolis, and were likely thought of similarly by people who imagined themselves to be better than them.

Additional potential prejudice found doesnt negate the position that Anderson's comments reflect his own personal opinions, and that they are made in very unflattering terms.

"Low class Jew"..."one of their own kind".

If thats not Anderson looking down on an entire body of people......"one of their own kind"....as if "humankind" didnt apply.

His full range of commentary combined suggests that he did indeed have predisposed thoughts regarding Immigrant Jews in the East End. Not flattering ones.

Best regards Howard

[jason_c]

In all fairness Howard, all that really proves is that its possible much of the use of the adjectives in other regional cases was just an example of more widespread prejudice...the nationalities you mentioned were also immigrant slum dwellers in the metropolis, and were likely thought of similarly by people who imagined themselves to be better than them.

Additional potential prejudice found doesnt negate the position that Anderson's comments reflect his own personal opinions, and that they are made in very unflattering terms.

"Low class Jew"..."one of their own kind".

If thats not Anderson looking down on an entire body of people......"one of their own kind"....as if "humankind" didnt apply.

His full range of commentary combined suggests that he did indeed have predisposed thoughts regarding Immigrant Jews in the East End. Not flattering ones.

Best regards Howard

Perrymason

Unfortunately you do not quote Anderson in full. For a point scoring exercise on a messageboard this is fine, for an accurate description of Anderson's beliefs it is bordering on dishonest.

"And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews; for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice."

[perrymason]

Perrymason

Unfortunately you do not quote Anderson in full. For a point scoring exercise on a messageboard this is fine, for an accurate description of Anderson's beliefs it is bordering on dishonest.

"And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews; for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice."

I do know the full quote Jason, and I know how it was modified by him later as well. If you imagine that the full quote diminishes my argument, you might want to explain how someone would interpret the Law of the Land as "Gentile" Justice. If anything the full quote assists that argument.

Low class Jews,.. people of that class, Gentile Justice....all to illustrate how its his opinion that a Low Class Jew would hide another Low Class Jew from "Gentile Justice", even if the man being hidden kills and mutilates strangers.

It would be offensive to suggest that about any ethnic group, and when done so disparaging Jews, it even has its own name for the offense. Anti Semitic.

Best regards Jason

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

The term "low class" if applied by a person who happens to be Jewish to a person or group of people who happen to be Jews...which is one of several I have seen and others have as well....is no different than a White person looking down on Whites and labelling them "trailer trash" or "White trash". Even blacks differentiate between Whites who exemplify the lifestyle of the great unwashed and those who don't. Its not such a big deal if SRA made an honest assessment in a similar way regarding the same people that Jewish leaders did and not in isolated incidents or obscure places. The following is the source which I realize now that I omitted before:

Salt Lake Tribune
1890-01-02
Page 3

There is no proof in any of Anderson's writings that he was anti-Semitic. I have a running wager with anyone who can prove otherwise. It should be easy for people since Anderson wrote often and was quoted frequently..but it will not materialize.

Mike....one possible antidote to the problem people have with the Anderson statement,in the original and within the revised and fully explained intention behind his original comments...is that SRA did not claim that the people who he alleges harbored the Ripper knew for certain that he, the harbored man, was indeed the Ripper...rather they may have, for all we know, had suspicions which they were not willing to divulge due to an uncertainty over the matter. This is and has always been left out of this whole brouhaha over a mere statement which winds up with us avoiding creative thinking about the situation at hand and taking it a little further and lightening up in regard to the remark that even leaders of the Jewish community made from time to time.

Put yourself in the shoes of a person or persons who have suspicions over quirks or even aberrant behavior in a family member and how often do these people, some often affected by the actions of the individual, go immediately to the authorities for help ? Thats right...sometimes years go by before someone puts their foot down and takes command of the situation.

Several wives of serial killers have come forward over the years and discussed their husband's behavior...some feigning ignorance...some expressed suspicions...and almost all decided to not alert the authorities. Gacy,Baumeister,Ridgeway, on down the line.... all had wives and it seldom gets more intimate than that relationship...and yet most decided to let things go for whatever reason.

If the "low class" Polish Jew did not display aberrant behavior or a change in his behavior to any significant degree within the four walls of his house...but had somehow made his way to the list of likely suspects that came across Anderson's desk...we must remember that the ONLY way the police could have put him or any other individual in the docket was to catch him redhanded. This was unlikely to happen if the best of what the people surrounding the suspect had was mere suspicion and not tangible proof...like a uterus in the desk drawer or bloody knives under his bed.

As it turned out, Anderson may very well had....whether right or wrong in his general assessment of Jews of a particular class...like "low class" Irish...like low class Germans...if the suspect had been one of those ethnic affiliations....ascertained that the people surrounding the Ripper "should have come forward" but obviously didn't to his satisfaction.

I agree that SRA is a perplexing individual,Mike...in some of his assessments of other crimes and in other areas....but this whole issue of anti-foreigner sentiment clouds the real issue about the suspect... which, if I may be so bold, is the example I have provided above....a situation where SRA felt that those surrounding the Ripper "just knew" what he felt they should have known...but didn't come forward and lived up to his expectations of low class "people", period.

Later...

[Chris]

Please would people bear in mind what caused offence in Anderson's writings? It was not the assertion that the killer was Jewish, and it was not any particular phraseology he applied to the Jewish population of Whitechapel.

It was the claim that even in the absence of any evidence pointing towards a particular culprit he had deduced that the killer must be Jewish, because he believed that only "low-class Jews" - and by implication no other section of society - would have shielded such a killer.

Some of Anderson's best friends may well have been Jewish, but I can't see how anyone can deny that this is evidence of prejudice against at least a section of the Jewish community - and a section that according to other accounts was on the whole more law-abiding than the native population of Whitechapel.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, Chris, but I personally believe that Anderson's bias was political and not religious in nature. What he was trying to tell us without saying it is that his suspect was an anarchist. This is the certain section of Jews in the east end who will not turn one of their own over to gentile justice. And he's absolutely correct about that in regards to anarchists and some socialists.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

Excuse me Chris...you said:

It was the claim that even in the absence of any evidence pointing towards a particular culprit he had deduced that the killer must be Jewish, because he believed that only "low-class Jews" - and by implication no other section of society - would have shielded such a killer.

Where did the "only low class Jews" come from ? Thank you.


but I can't see how anyone can deny that this is evidence of prejudice against at least a section of the Jewish community - and a section that according to other accounts was on the whole more law-abiding than the native population of Whitechapel.

Its not ethnic egocentrism, but provincialism....elitism, to be precise in what Anderson stated. He may well have had less endearing opinions of low class Jews...than their affluent, connected cousins. I wouldn't argue against that whatsoever for what its worth.

My "point" is that had the suspect been from a low class Irish background, I doubt for a nanosecond that Anderson would have hesitated to say the same about "low class Irish" in the same vein.