How many victims?

[Trevor Marriott]

I pretty much ‘ditto’ Jeff’s post but maybe I’d add that no one could really describe the ripper as a normal, rational person working to strict guidelines. Therefore how can we know what was going through his mind at any given time? So I’d say that to suggest that any one of these murders were by a different person we would be on pretty shaky ground. For me the difference would have had to have been far more pronounced or something that perhaps could have a plausible explanation in the circumstances.

I also don’t see how a Police Officer’s remembrance trumps the PM notes on Kelly’s heart?

Because the doctors statement is ambiguos he says it was missing from the pericardium not missing taken away. This taken away by the killer is an wrong inference that has been drawn as a result of the ambiguos statement and researchers making a meal of it with regards to the suggestion that organs were also taken from Chapman and Eddowes.

Besides following the pm a further search of the room was carried out.

Insp Reid was head of Whitechapel CID he visited the crime scene if anyone would know the truth it would have been him. He is a credible witness. The police would have prepatred a file for the inquest, show me where anyone else from any rank acknowledges that Kellys heart was taken away by the killer. There is no one and why is there no one, because it wasnt taken away-Capiche!!!!!!!!

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[erobitha]

I don’t know about that one Erobitha. I know that it’s been suggested though. Could a bloodied heart have burned?

I read the theory and gave it some serious thought momentarily.

If you were cooking a heart to eat, say a beef heart - it just requires a searing on either side for it to be edible. There was no evidence to suggest he tried to cook and eat it in the room, so the only plausible answer is that is was taken away.

He never took a heart before and his previous takeaways had mainly been involving the female sexual organs. Although, we did see a bit of escalation with the murder prior with the removel of Eddowes kidney. The heart though offers a lot more symbolism.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because the doctors statement is ambiguos he says it was missing from the pericardium not missing taken away. This taken away by the killer is an wrong inference that has been drawn as a result of the ambiguos statement and researchers making a meal of it with regards to the suggestion that organs were also taken from Chapman and Eddowes.

Besides following the pm a further search of the room was carried out.

Insp Reid was head of Whitechapel CID he visited the crime scene if anyone would know the truth it would have been him. He is a credible witness. The police would have prepatred a file for the inquest, show me where anyone else from any rank acknowledges that Kellys heart was taken away by the killer. There is no one and why is there no one, because it wasnt taken away-Capiche!!!!!!!!

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And because of a piece of ambiguous wording you’ve gone into conspiracy mode. If a further search of the room was done, and I’m not doubting you on that, why did no one mention finding a heart anywhere? Why do you find the ambiguous wording worthy of note but not the fact that, in a room that would have been minutely examined, no heart was found?

And do you know why no heart was found Trevor?

I do.

[Trevor Marriott]

And because of a piece of ambiguous wording you’ve gone into conspiracy mode. If a further search of the room was done, and I’m not doubting you on that, why did no one mention finding a heart anywhere? Why do you find the ambiguous wording worthy of note but not the fact that, in a room that would have been minutely examined, no heart was found?

And do you know why no heart was found Trevor?

I do.

There is no conspiracy to be had, its plain and simple, Bond stated the heart was mising from the pericardium there is no mention of it being taken away by the killer. No one therefater mentions the heart being taken away by the killer. But we do have mention both in the press of the day and in Reids later interview that all the organs were accounted for so all off that evidence against one ambiguos statement. I know where my money is a safe bet

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[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no conspiracy to be had, its plain and simple, Bond stated the heart was mising from the pericardium there is no mention of it being taken away by the killer. No one therefater mentions the heart being taken away by the killer. But we do have mention both in the press of the day and in Reids later interview that all the organs were accounted for so all off that evidence against one ambiguos statement. I know where my money is a safe bet

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Assuming that Bond wasn’t making it up and that he knew what a heart looked like, he said that it was missing from the pericardium therefore it was removed from the body. So if it wasn’t in the body and neither Bond nor anyone else mention it being on a table or the bed or the floor then where was it?

Wouldn’t Bond and the other Doctors have spotted it? So why is Reid more reliable than Bond? Even more to the point why are the Press more reliable?

Perhaps they should have asked Reid to have performed the Post Mortem assisted by Fred Smith, reporter from The Star?

[Astatine211]

If you were to include Annie Millwood and Carrie Brown they would also fit with the pattern of escalation especially since Millwoods is very similar to Tabram's but less severe and Carrie Brown's is very similar to MJK's and is very extreme.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. bone. The viscera were found in various parts viz; the uterus & kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side & the spleen by the left side of the body. The flaps removed from the abdomen & thighs were on a table.

But he doesn’t find the heart.

[Trevor Marriott]

Assuming that Bond wasn’t making it up and that he knew what a heart looked like, he said that it was missing from the pericardium therefore it was removed from the body. So if it wasn’t in the body and neither Bond nor anyone else mention it being on a table or the bed or the floor then where was it?

Wouldn’t Bond and the other Doctors have spotted it? So why is Reid more reliable than Bond? Even more to the point why are the Press more reliable?

Perhaps they should have asked Reid to have performed the Post Mortem assisted by Fred Smith, reporter from The Star?

I forgot to mention the pail that was removed from the room and taken to the home of Dr Phillips which presumably contained body parts before the post mortem

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[Herlock Sholmes]

I forgot to mention the pail that was removed from the room and taken to the home of Dr Phillips which presumably contained body parts before the post mortem

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The contents of which would have been seen by the Doctors before being put into the Pail. Who they have missed a heart? Doubt it.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Trevor,

Morning Advertiser, 10th November 1888—

“The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room and the body removed his camera from the premises at half-past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail with which he left in a four-wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and it was stated that it contained portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital Square.”

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

There is no conspiracy to be had, its plain and simple, Bond stated the heart was mising from the pericardium there is no mention of it being taken away by the killer. No one therefater mentions the heart being taken away by the killer. But we do have mention both in the press of the day and in Reids later interview that all the organs were accounted for so all off that evidence against one ambiguos statement. I know where my money is a safe bet

But we also have the article by Dr Hebbert in A System of Legal Medicine, in which he states that "all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room".
So if it wasn't found in the body, and it wasn't found in the room.....is your money as safe as you'd like to think?

[Abby Normal]

If you were to include Annie Millwood and Carrie Brown they would also fit with the pattern of escalation especially since Millwoods is very similar to Tabram's but less severe and Carrie Brown's is very similar to MJK's and is very extreme.

totally agree with you on millwood. i think she was an early ripper victim. not so sure about brown. unless of course it was hermans.
was he in NY around this time after coming from England?

[Gordon]

Bond made notes of where all Kelly’s major organs were in the room except for the heart. The implication was that the heart, unless burned (unlikely), must have been taken away.

If its presumed removal by her killer was not made clear at the time, that should probably be blamed on the way Macdonald conducted the inquest. When Wynne Baxter conducted the inquests on other victims, the removal of uteruses and a kidney was highlighted and received due publicity. Macdonald on the other hand did his best to play down and conceal all these details.

[Trevor Marriott]

Bond made notes of where all Kelly’s major organs were in the room except for the heart. The implication was that the heart, unless burned (unlikely), must have been taken away.

If its presumed removal by her killer was not made clear at the time, that should probably be blamed on the way Macdonald conducted the inquest. When Wynne Baxter conducted the inquests on other victims, the removal of uteruses and a kidney was highlighted and received due publicity. Macdonald on the other hand did his best to play down and conceal all these details.

Thats pure conjecture on your part

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[Trevor Marriott]

But we also have the article by Dr Hebbert in A System of Legal Medicine, in which he states that "all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room".
So if it wasn't found in the body, and it wasn't found in the room.....is your money as safe as you'd like to think?

Hebbert was Dr Bond’s assistant and was responsible for taking notes at the crime scene, and the post mortem. It is believed he prepared Bonds report to Anderson from those notes. Bonds report surfaced in later years but would appear to be missing the final page or pages, as to what that page or pages may or may not have contained we can only speculate.

It should also be noted that following the post mortem as has previously been mentioned several Doctors and Police officers revisited the crime scene, for what purpose is unclear. It is suggested that this was to examine the contents of the fire grate, as it was believed that perhaps body parts had been burnt by the killer. However, Dr Hebbert was not one of those and so what if anything was found during that visit must remain a mystery, because all he does is corroborate Bonds ambiguous post mortem report.

Money still safe

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