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  • How many victims?

    For many years now researchers having trying to firmly establish exactly how many women were murdered by this lone killer who became known as JTR and the MO used by the killer. I have set out below the differing MO`s seen in the various murders which I believe are very relevant in determining the killers MO

    Murder and Mutilation
    Martha Tabram- Murder extreme mutilations
    Polly Nichols-Murder minor mutilations
    Alice McKenzie-Murder. Minor mutilations
    Murder. Mutilation and alleged organ removals
    Annie Chapman- extreme mutilations
    Catherine Eddowes – extreme mutilations
    Mary Kelly-extreme mutilations
    ( I am personally satisfied that there is sufficient reliable evidence to show that no organs were taken away by the killer from the Kelly crime scene)
    Murder-No mutilations
    Elizabeth Stride
    Frances Coles

    The point of this exercise is to show the marked differences in the murders which perhaps indicate more than one killer, or simply one killer who simply murdered and mutilated and did not remove the organs from some of the victims. We know that virtually all the victims were killed in the dead of night in the early hours. So why do we see examples of extreme mutilations in some victims, and minor mutilations in other victims, and almost none in others, all killed around the same times, and yet only two who are alleged to have had organs removed.

    It is said that the killer removed organs and took them away in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes, but we see no examples of this occurring with any of the other victims, or any attempts at this, and I have to ask why, if it was the same killer surely if he had time in Mitre Square he would have had time to remove organs with the other victims or at least made some attempt at other crime scenes

    So we are left with unanswered questions

    Were all the victims killed by one killer or more than one?
    If the answer is one killer, then we have to ask why didn’t that killer attempt to remove, or remove any organs from any of the other victims.


    www.trevormarriott.co.uk



  • #2
    I can’t understand why you class Tabram as Murder Extreme Mutilations when she was just stabbed 39 times and yet Nichols is listed as Murder Minor Mutilations?

    Interruptions such as hearing a noise could account for any differences such as the non-removal of parts. Also the kind of mutilations performed on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly would make the chances of these being done by different killers (in such a small area and over such a small period of time) so vanishingly minute IMO as to be not really worth considering.
    Regards

    Herlock




    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
    As night descends upon this fabled street:
    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I can’t understand why you class Tabram as Murder Extreme Mutilations when she was just stabbed 39 times and yet Nichols is listed as Murder Minor Mutilations?

      Interruptions such as hearing a noise could account for any differences such as the non-removal of parts. Also the kind of mutilations performed on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly would make the chances of these being done by different killers (in such a small area and over such a small period of time) so vanishingly minute IMO as to be not really worth considering.
      Now how did I know that of all people it would be you who would come up with the disturbed scenario

      Do you not consider being stabbed 39 times as being mutilation to the abdomen? because I do

      My point of the post is to show that if one killer then he had the chance to at least attempt to make some effort to remove organs from other victims but we see no evidence of that, but we do see evidence of organs being found to be missing at the post mortems of Chapman and Eddowes. Now even you must think that strange that we see no attempts to remove organs from 4 other potential ripper victimsI am sure he wasnt disturbed on all of those occassion and after all if Stried was a victim there are those who will say that after being disturbed he went onto find a second victim the same night

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Trevor,

        I think Tabram is worthy of consideration due to the extreme violence of the attack, which was unusual and worthy of note at the time. While she was purportedly with a soldier that night, there was more than enough time for her to find another customer. Indeed, her murder is well worth considering as a potential first of the series.

        Also, given Cross/Lechmere and Paul do appear to have come across Nichols only shortly after she was killed (they report she was still warm, etc), that there's very good reason to consider they prompted her killer to flee (similar to PC Harvey "interrupting" Eddowes' murder). The similarity between Nicholes, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly's murders do seem to me to reflect a common perpetrator, and while I know you are not convinced Kelly's heart was taken, I read that differently, and so see organ removal as occurring in the last 3 of those 4. We differ on that, of course, but we both acknowledge what our views are so there's no need to go into that further.

        Stride does stand out as different. The only thing that makes me consider her as possibly part of the series is the similarity between the wound to her throat and that of Eddowes later that same night (deep on the left side, with much less damage on the right). It appears JtR was no longer encircling the entire neck, as he appears to have done with both Nicoles and Chapman, although even in both of those cases there's another cut, probably the first, which is more on the left side only. Anyway, given there is reason to consider "interruption" for both Nicholes (Cross/Lechmere's arrival, with Paul shortly behind) and Eddowes (PC Harvey), the more well known "interrpution" argument for Stride becomes more worth considering. On the other hand, as you point out, the complete lack of any mutilations or evidence they were to be attempted, does make her inclusion more speculative in my view.

        Alice McKenzie's mutilations were fairly minor in comparison, but I think the fact there was some attack on the abdomen does suggest she be considered a bit more than is typically the case.

        So, in my view, I think Nicholes, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly are linked. Stride should be considered, but at the same time shouldn't be key to any "solution" as her inclusion is tentative. And both Martha Tabram and Alice McKenzie should also be looked at a bit more seriously than many view them (though I know there are a fair number of people who consider Martha Tabram as a "probable" case).

        While you didn't mention them, I'm not convinced that the torso murders are connected at all.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
          Hi Trevor,

          I think Tabram is worthy of consideration due to the extreme violence of the attack, which was unusual and worthy of note at the time. While she was purportedly with a soldier that night, there was more than enough time for her to find another customer. Indeed, her murder is well worth considering as a potential first of the series.

          Also, given Cross/Lechmere and Paul do appear to have come across Nichols only shortly after she was killed (they report she was still warm, etc), that there's very good reason to consider they prompted her killer to flee (similar to PC Harvey "interrupting" Eddowes' murder). The similarity between Nicholes, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly's murders do seem to me to reflect a common perpetrator, and while I know you are not convinced Kelly's heart was taken, I read that differently, and so see organ removal as occurring in the last 3 of those 4. We differ on that, of course, but we both acknowledge what our views are so there's no need to go into that further.

          Stride does stand out as different. The only thing that makes me consider her as possibly part of the series is the similarity between the wound to her throat and that of Eddowes later that same night (deep on the left side, with much less damage on the right). It appears JtR was no longer encircling the entire neck, as he appears to have done with both Nicoles and Chapman, although even in both of those cases there's another cut, probably the first, which is more on the left side only. Anyway, given there is reason to consider "interruption" for both Nicholes (Cross/Lechmere's arrival, with Paul shortly behind) and Eddowes (PC Harvey), the more well known "interrpution" argument for Stride becomes more worth considering. On the other hand, as you point out, the complete lack of any mutilations or evidence they were to be attempted, does make her inclusion more speculative in my view.

          Alice McKenzie's mutilations were fairly minor in comparison, but I think the fact there was some attack on the abdomen does suggest she be considered a bit more than is typically the case.

          So, in my view, I think Nicholes, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly are linked. Stride should be considered, but at the same time shouldn't be key to any "solution" as her inclusion is tentative. And both Martha Tabram and Alice McKenzie should also be looked at a bit more seriously than many view them (though I know there are a fair number of people who consider Martha Tabram as a "probable" case).

          While you didn't mention them, I'm not convinced that the torso murders are connected at all.

          - Jeff
          Hi Jeff

          The suggestion that the torsos were by the same hand are pie in the sky stuff, there is almost nil evidence to even show they were as a result of murders.

          Have you read the NOW article with the interview with Inspect Reid in which he states no organs were taken from Kelly?

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

            Hi Jeff

            The suggestion that the torsos were by the same hand are pie in the sky stuff, there is almost nil evidence to even show they were as a result of murders.

            Have you read the NOW article with the interview with Inspect Reid in which he states no organs were taken from Kelly?

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
            I've seen mention of Ried's interview, but I've also seen the post-mortem notes that state the heart was not in the chest cavity and was absent. I consider the PM notes to be definitive. I know you disagree, but that's the basis for my view.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Jeff
              There is no definitive evidence to show it was taken away by the killer and the statement you rely on is ambiguous

              absent from the pericardium doesn’t mean absent from the room

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                Hi Jeff
                There is no definitive evidence to show it was taken away by the killer and the statement you rely on is ambiguous

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                As I say, you read the PM notes differently to myself. To me the statement is clear and unambiguous, the heart was not present, and the only way that could be the case is if the killer took it. You don't read it that way though, which is your prerogative, but we differ in our views on that. In the end, for linkage analysis, it's a bit of neither here nor there as you don't think organs were taken from any of the crimes, therefore organs missing are not a basis for inclusion/exclusion for you but the remaining similarity of the attacks would still lead to a connection I would think. I just see the organ taking as one more aspect that links cases, but would still link them even if no organs were taken.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  Now how did I know that of all people it would be you who would come up with the disturbed scenario

                  Do you not consider being stabbed 39 times as being mutilation to the abdomen? because I do

                  My point of the post is to show that if one killer then he had the chance to at least attempt to make some effort to remove organs from other victims but we see no evidence of that, but we do see evidence of organs being found to be missing at the post mortems of Chapman and Eddowes. Now even you must think that strange that we see no attempts to remove organs from 4 other potential ripper victimsI am sure he wasnt disturbed on all of those occassion and after all if Stried was a victim there are those who will say that after being disturbed he went onto find a second victim the same night

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  I pretty much ‘ditto’ Jeff’s post but maybe I’d add that no one could really describe the ripper as a normal, rational person working to strict guidelines. Therefore how can we know what was going through his mind at any given time? So I’d say that to suggest that any one of these murders were by a different person we would be on pretty shaky ground. For me the difference would have had to have been far more pronounced or something that perhaps could have a plausible explanation in the circumstances.

                  I also don’t see how a Police Officer’s remembrance trumps the PM notes on Kelly’s heart?

                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                  As night descends upon this fabled street:
                  A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                  The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                  Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                  And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Heart missing + not in the room = taken away (it’s that simple Trevor.)
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                    As night descends upon this fabled street:
                    A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                    The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                    Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                    And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      Heart missing + not in the room = taken away (it’s that simple Trevor.)
                      Or heart missing = from chest.
                      G U T

                      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GUT View Post

                        Or heart missing = from chest.
                        or it was burnt on the fire.....
                        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GUT View Post

                          Or heart missing = from chest.
                          True GUT but surely they’d have mentioned it if it had been discovered elsewhere in the room?
                          Regards

                          Herlock




                          “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                          As night descends upon this fabled street:
                          A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                          The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                          Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                          And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                            or it was burnt on the fire.....
                            I don’t know about that one Erobitha. I know that it’s been suggested though. Could a bloodied heart have burned?
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                            As night descends upon this fabled street:
                            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                              For many years now researchers having trying to firmly establish exactly how many women were murdered by this lone killer who became known as JTR and the MO used by the killer. I have set out below the differing MO`s seen in the various murders which I believe are very relevant in determining the killers MO

                              Murder and Mutilation
                              Martha Tabram- Murder extreme mutilations
                              Polly Nichols-Murder minor mutilations
                              Alice McKenzie-Murder. Minor mutilations
                              Murder. Mutilation and alleged organ removals
                              Annie Chapman- extreme mutilations
                              Catherine Eddowes – extreme mutilations
                              Mary Kelly-extreme mutilations
                              ( I am personally satisfied that there is sufficient reliable evidence to show that no organs were taken away by the killer from the Kelly crime scene)
                              Murder-No mutilations
                              Elizabeth Stride
                              Frances Coles

                              The point of this exercise is to show the marked differences in the murders which perhaps indicate more than one killer, or simply one killer who simply murdered and mutilated and did not remove the organs from some of the victims. We know that virtually all the victims were killed in the dead of night in the early hours. So why do we see examples of extreme mutilations in some victims, and minor mutilations in other victims, and almost none in others, all killed around the same times, and yet only two who are alleged to have had organs removed.

                              It is said that the killer removed organs and took them away in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes, but we see no examples of this occurring with any of the other victims, or any attempts at this, and I have to ask why, if it was the same killer surely if he had time in Mitre Square he would have had time to remove organs with the other victims or at least made some attempt at other crime scenes

                              So we are left with unanswered questions

                              Were all the victims killed by one killer or more than one?
                              If the answer is one killer, then we have to ask why didn’t that killer attempt to remove, or remove any organs from any of the other victims.


                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                              seven. tabram through mckenzie. coles to far out and probably killed by sadler. so many similarities between tabram and mckenzie and the rest but clincher is both had their skirts hiked up like the rest.
                              Any differences can be explained by escalation and circs, like interuption.
                              its really that simple.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment

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