How many victims?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ha, well there is a distinction between the two. "MO" refers to the practical aspects of the murders, how the killer executes his crimes, for example, a killer stalking his victims, carrying out a sudden "blitz" attack, or pretending to be in need like Bundy did, whereas the "signature" is the ritualistic elements, such as post-mortem mutilations, victim posing, leaving messages/signs etc.

Ritual and Signature in Serial Sexual Homicide | Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law (jaapl.org)

Notwithstanding numerous anecdotal case reports, ritual and signature have rarely been studied empirically. In a national sample of 38 offenders and their 162 victims, we examined behavioral and thematic consistency, as well as the evolution and uniqueness of these crime scene actions. The notion that serial sexual murderers engage in the same rituals and leave unique signatures at every scene was not supported by our data. In fact, the results suggest that the crime scene conduct of this group of offenders is fairly complex and varied.

[Harry D]

I like how you changed M.O to "signature elements." Going to have to remember that one. I will say that I am not sure how many victims there were. The fact that the C5 are only the C5 because of Mcnaughten is quite remarkable. Kelly showed us that when given more time how much he changes. His signature element to me is the blitz attack, killing as fast as possible. It's almost like TK and the Ripper knew each other and were trying to outdo each other. If they weren't one and the same.

Ha, well there is a distinction between the two. "MO" refers to the practical aspects of the murders, how the killer executes his crimes, for example, a killer stalking his victims, carrying out a sudden "blitz" attack, or pretending to be in need like Bundy did, whereas the "signature" is the ritualistic elements, such as post-mortem mutilations, victim posing, leaving messages/signs etc.

[The Macdonald Triad]

In terms of early victims, I'm unconvinced by Emma Smith or Martha Tabram. There's a chance that Smith lied about her attackers because she was soliciting, but her murder has the signs of a sexual assault. Although JTR's motives may have been sexual, there was no sexual element to the canonical murders. Tabram's proximity to the first canonical murder in both time and place is problematic, but her injuries evinced either uncontrollable rage or picquerism. It's difficult to believe that JTR was "experimenting" when he stabbed her 39 times. These are not signature elements of the other Whitechapel murders, and I would argue this takes precedence over the fact she was a prostitute and her skirts were raised. Violence is an occupational hazard for prostitutes, and it would hardly be unnatural for her skirts to be raised in this position.

I like how you changed M.O to "signature elements." Going to have to remember that one. I will say that I am not sure how many victims there were. The fact that the C5 are only the C5 because of Mcnaughten is quite remarkable. Kelly showed us that when given more time how much he changes. His signature element to me is the blitz attack, killing as fast as possible. It's almost like TK and the Ripper knew each other and were trying to outdo each other. If they weren't one and the same.

[Abby Normal]

Look at the Thames Torso victims that predate the Whitechapel series. The killer was dismembering and dissecting his victims as early as 1873. There was evidentially a degree of anatomical knowledge and lack of frenzy to this series. The same can be said for the canonical Ripper murders.

The signature elements of these murders are not congruent with the frenzied/picquerist stabbing of Martha Tabram.

good point Harry
and its one of the main sticklers for me for including her also, in either series. but to me the similarities far outweigh the differences, especially if your just looking at the ripper series alone.

[Harry D]

Why would it? Sorry, but I don't understand.

Bests,

Mark D.

Look at the Thames Torso victims that predate the Whitechapel series. The killer was dismembering and dissecting his victims as early as 1873. There was evidentially a degree of anatomical knowledge and lack of frenzy to this series. The same can be said for the canonical Ripper murders.

The signature elements of these murders are not congruent with the frenzied/picquerist stabbing of Martha Tabram.

[Ms Diddles]

On Smith, it seems a singularly perverted method of attack in a year dominated by a sexually motivated killer. From what I've read, Bundy did similar things to some of his victims and I think I'm right in saying Sutcliffe did something similar with a beer bottle. What happened to Smith seems like something serial killers may just do. She would have to be lying of course. Never a fan of the lying route but Reid did raise doubts about her story. Perhaps she just didn't want to admit the prostitution element and it was less embarrassing to have been overpowered and attacked by a gang.

Hi Wulf,

Tom Wescott's book The Bank Holiday Murders is really interesting on Smith and Tabram.

Re Smith he makes the case that there was no blood or signs of the attack at the place which Smith pointed out to the women who accompanied her to the hospital as being the scene of the attack.

Also according to the times cited, it had taken her hours to limp the short distance back to the lodging house yet none of the police officers whose beats passed that way reported seeing her.

He theorises that when admitted to the hospital, she would not have realised that her wound was fatal, so may have feared retribution from her attacker and invented the gang attack.

Re Tabram he points out that there appears to have been a large internal stab to her vagina which is kind of glossed over in the medical reports and which is reminiscent of what happened to Smith, but with a different weapon.

I'm not sure that I subscribe to this theory, but he makes quite a compelling argument and the book is worth a read.

[Harry D]

'Seems to me that Annie's murder was farther removed from Polly's murder, than Martha's was from Polly's.

The injuries Dr Llewellyn describes (Polly murder) are numerous incisions running down and across the abdomen, which suggests someone not focused on organ removal.

I would disagree with that. Nichols was sliced in the abdominal region, and Annie had her abdomen sliced open. Seems a clear progression to me. Whether the killer planned to eviscerate Nichols, only to be interrupted, I'm not too sure.

On a related note, Peter Sutcliffe strangled to death some of his victims and others were stabbed to death.

But Sutcliffe stabbed several of his victims to death. He didn't stab one of them and move onto a new MO.

[Abby Normal]

On Smith, it seems a singularly perverted method of attack in a year dominated by a sexually motivated killer. From what I've read, Bundy did similar things to some of his victims and I think I'm right in saying Sutcliffe did something similar with a beer bottle. What happened to Smith seems like something serial killers may just do. She would have to be lying of course. Never a fan of the lying route but Reid did raise doubts about her story. Perhaps she just didn't want to admit the prostitution element and it was less embarrassing to have been overpowered and attacked by a gang.

hi wulf
except there is no evidence that she lied about it. and with no real compelling evidence or reason for her to lie than i see no reason to doubt her story. the afraid of being linked to prostitution theory isnt compelling enough reason for me.

[Abby Normal]

I recently found this on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper

Quote
Some researchers have posited that some of the murders were undoubtedly the work of a single killer, but an unknown larger number of killers acting independently were responsible for the other crimes.[75] Authors Stewart P. Evans and Donald Rumbelow argue that the canonical five is a "Ripper myth" and that three cases (Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes) can be definitely linked to the same perpetrator, but that less certainty exists as to whether Stride and Kelly were also murdered by the same individual.^[76]
Unquote

Is the canonical five really a "Ripper myth"?

yes, but going the other way imho. ive got seven tabram to mckenzie in terms of fatal attacks. with millwood first botched non fatal attack.

[Losmandris]

On Smith, it seems a singularly perverted method of attack in a year dominated by a sexually motivated killer. From what I've read, Bundy did similar things to some of his victims and I think I'm right in saying Sutcliffe did something similar with a beer bottle. What happened to Smith seems like something serial killers may just do. She would have to be lying of course. Never a fan of the lying route but Reid did raise doubts about her story. Perhaps she just didn't want to admit the prostitution element and it was less embarrassing to have been overpowered and attacked by a gang.

Is it possible that the person who committed the actual act within the gang went on to commit the rest of the/a number of the following murders? It is unlikely but possible I suppose. For me I think Martha Tabram is victim number one. Too many similarities to dismiss.

[Abby Normal]

Wouldn't Tabram's inclusion raise further problems when it comes to the Torso-Ripper theory?

i knew that was coming lol. very astute of you Harry. perhaps it would. or perhaps, millwood and tabram, being torsomans first street victims, as opposed to victims he was able to lure to his bolt hole, where a bit clumsy. or perhaps millwood and or tabram was an unplanned trigger kill.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It's difficult to believe that JTR was "experimenting" when he stabbed her 39 times. These are not signature elements of the other Whitechapel murders, and I would argue this takes precedence over the fact she was a prostitute and her skirts were raised.

'Seems to me that Annie's murder was farther removed from Polly's murder, than Martha's was from Polly's.

The injuries Dr Llewellyn describes (Polly murder) are numerous incisions running down and across the abdomen, which suggests someone not focused on organ removal.

On a related note, Peter Sutcliffe strangled to death some of his victims and others were stabbed to death.

[Aethelwulf]

hi Harry
a good a well reasoned post. i dont think emma smith was part of the series. she was set upon by thugs and there is no evidence that she lied and that it was only one man. and besides post mortem type serial killers pretty much exclusively are the work alone types. if you imclude millwood as a possible first attack, then tabram looks to be a natural escalation as the ripper perfected his mo. there is such similarities between millwood, tanram and the rest that the escalation idea seems pretty reasonable to me. and i see tabrams raised skirts as the final straw that links her to the rest. the rippers habit on exposing the area of his main focus. im pretty confident that Tabram (and Millwood) were ripper victims.

On Smith, it seems a singularly perverted method of attack in a year dominated by a sexually motivated killer. From what I've read, Bundy did similar things to some of his victims and I think I'm right in saying Sutcliffe did something similar with a beer bottle. What happened to Smith seems like something serial killers may just do. She would have to be lying of course. Never a fan of the lying route but Reid did raise doubts about her story. Perhaps she just didn't want to admit the prostitution element and it was less embarrassing to have been overpowered and attacked by a gang.

[mpriestnall]

I recently found this on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper

Quote
Some researchers have posited that some of the murders were undoubtedly the work of a single killer, but an unknown larger number of killers acting independently were responsible for the other crimes.[75] Authors Stewart P. Evans and Donald Rumbelow argue that the canonical five is a "Ripper myth" and that three cases (Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes) can be definitely linked to the same perpetrator, but that less certainty exists as to whether Stride and Kelly were also murdered by the same individual.^[76]
Unquote

Is the canonical five really a "Ripper myth"?

[mpriestnall]

The extent and type of mutilations is not the sole factor that should be used to include or exclude which victims were JTR's.

Other linking factors that can be included:

- A number of witness sightings state that victims were seen with a short, stout/broad shouldered man.

- Some of the victim's injuries show medical knowledge and/or skill.

- Geographical and temporal coincidences.