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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    exactly fiver. she was stabbed to the point of mutilation and also had a CUT to the privates. post mortem overkill
    post mortem?

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    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

      hi man
      no one had a key to her room, they lost it. so perhaps if blotchy killed her, he locked (or it locked auto) before he left and closed the door. or barnett (or some one else like hutch) who knew the window trick came later when she was passed out. one things for sure-whoever killed her was the ripper IMHO.

      rage (anger, jealousy) does many times point to a personal motive and that they knew each other, but to post mortem mutilate to that extent and remove organs requires a whole different animal. Im not saying barnet couldnt have done it, but if he did, then surely he was the ripper.

      (one thing pointing away from barnett though is that when a loved one is murdered, the killer will often, for psychological reasons, will do something like cover them up with a blanket--not leave them horribly displayed)

      and i do think mary kelly probably knew her killer, which imho means she knew the the ripper. ive felt for a long time this is one reason why she is the key to this ever being solved, although at this point unlikely.

      Abby
      Rage born of jealousy for real or imagined wrongs does strange things to the human mind. Abnormal behavior, even in a psychotic episode, can be a "one time thing". Barnett, I'm sure, was quite satisfied with his "revenge", albeit savage and quite unnecessary. He lived until the 1920s, got married and as far as I know lived a "normal" life. He was not JTR, some one else was. Who that may be (IMO) I'll leave until another day.
      I agree MJK is a key, but to exactly what, I'm not sure.
      The lock to MJK's door was surely an old one and anyone other than the occupant (or former one in Barnett's case) would have left the door unbolted as they left. A person leaves hers/his premises and locks the door from force of habit.

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      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        Stride wasnt mutilated at all. Nor was Tabram.
        Well, Stride would have been if her killer hadn't been interrupted. Tabram -- also yes. 39 stab wounds could be considered a type of mutilation.

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        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

          Stride wasnt mutilated at all. Nor was Tabram. So..another killer at the same time? At least one other for my money, because I dont see the killer of either of those women being a Torso maker either. I think you rely too much on a single active serial killer premise...because as we see today, in much larger populations of course, perhaps 10 or even hundreds of multiple killers killing simultaneously.

          Tabram was indeed mutilated, without her intestines sticking out, but mutilated just the same. I'm sticking with the single killer theory. He was escalating, exploring, from Smith to Tabram to Nichols to Chapman to Eddowes and interrupted "doing" Nichols and McKenzie.

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          • Originally posted by Gordon View Post

            I'm unclear where there’s any credible evidence that the Ripper had nine or ten victims. That’s taking speculation a very long way. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

            More to the point, some serial killers certainly can change their MO. A notable example was that latter-day Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe. He changed his method of murder from bashing on the head with a hammer to strangulation. Admittedly he bashed Marguerite Walls on the head before strangling her, but when he attacked Dr. Uphadya Bandara he began his assault by trying to strangle her--an attack that she luckily survived. That’s a radical change in MO--and very late in his series of murders, too, when we’d expect an MO to be firmly established. It threw the police for a loop because they failed to connect these crimes with his other murders. Plus these victims weren’t prostitutes, but very respectable women. Sutcliffe started seeing every woman as a “prostitute” in the end, whether she was or not.

            Compared with that, taking or not taking body organs is a minor variation. I would say the Ripper’s primary intention was to hack, destroy, and mutilate, driven by insane hatred. Taking body organs as trophies was a secondary motive that occurred to him along the way. In any case he was developing his MO as he went along, and no doubt ran short of time on more than one occasion, so variations in what he did to his victims were to be expected. I’d be very surprised to hear if he was a cookie-cutter killler who succeeded in doing precisely the same thing to all of his victims.
            I have just caught up with this thread and agree with Gordon that the ripper's 'primary intention' seemed to be to destroy his victims, with the trophy taking secondary, if and when the circumstances allowed, but equally if and when he felt like doing so. I'm not sure if he ever went out with his knife determined to try and remove or take away body parts, never mind a specific organ. Just because he could, it doesn't follow that he always would, given half a chance. It seems to me that it's a common mistake to judge the number of ripper victims, based on an assumption that the killer who removed and took away body parts would have been compelled to do so whenever he committed murder, and would only have attacked a woman for that express purpose. Others exclude victims from the ripper's tally using the degree of mutilation or lack of it. When the killer of Nichols and Chapman earned himself the nickname Jack the Ripper, Stride had not yet been murdered, and the nickname had yet to be made public, but the argument goes that because she was not actually ripped, then Jack the Ripper didn't kill her. It's as if he is expected to have lived up to a nickname, which, if he didn't give it to himself, he didn't even know about at the time. Had the author signed himself Jack the Throat Slitter, the same killer would not have let anyone down if he slit Stride's throat and left her unripped, with all her body parts present and intact.

            Love,

            Caz
            X
            "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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            • Originally posted by caz View Post

              I have just caught up with this thread and agree with Gordon that the ripper's 'primary intention' seemed to be to destroy his victims, with the trophy taking secondary, if and when the circumstances allowed, but equally if and when he felt like doing so. I'm not sure if he ever went out with his knife determined to try and remove or take away body parts, never mind a specific organ. Just because he could, it doesn't follow that he always would, given half a chance. It seems to me that it's a common mistake to judge the number of ripper victims, based on an assumption that the killer who removed and took away body parts would have been compelled to do so whenever he committed murder, and would only have attacked a woman for that express purpose. Others exclude victims from the ripper's tally using the degree of mutilation or lack of it. When the killer of Nichols and Chapman earned himself the nickname Jack the Ripper, Stride had not yet been murdered, and the nickname had yet to be made public, but the argument goes that because she was not actually ripped, then Jack the Ripper didn't kill her. It's as if he is expected to have lived up to a nickname, which, if he didn't give it to himself, he didn't even know about at the time. Had the author signed himself Jack the Throat Slitter, the same killer would not have let anyone down if he slit Stride's throat and left her unripped, with all her body parts present and intact.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Hi Caz,

              That's a fair point.

              I'd say "to be fair", but you've previously extracted the micturate over that phrase, so I'll go with "a fair point". Which it is.
              Thems the Vagaries.....

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              • Cheers Al Bundy's Eyes. Or can I call you Al?

                With my tongue only slightly in my cheek...

                To extend the point further, if the Dear Boss author had signed off as 'Womb Raider', would we now be excluding all but Chapman and Eddowes from his tally?

                Peter Sutcliffe typically used a hammer and/or his hands, so the Yorkshire Ripper was hardly the most fitting trade name, yet he saw no reason to try to live up to his public image as a late 20th century Jack.

                I think, when not ruling out Stride as one of Jack the Throat Slitter's victims, one could make an argument for or against the Dear Boss letter being a hoax. If it was, then the throat slitter didn't know he was meant to rip every time, to rise to 21st century expectations, and messed up in Dutfield's Yard.

                If the letter was genuine, then by giving himself the trade name of Ripper, he would soon have a public image to keep up, and one could view his Saucy Jacky postcard as an apologetic postscript to explain why a second victim had to die that night. One could speculate that he was making up for the first, by taking two specific body parts from Eddowes, who didn't have two wombs, but a kidney would do nicely as a consolation prize. Kate and kidney pie would at least be edible, and serve as a takeaway if he arrived home a bit peckish.

                Have a splendid weekend, Al.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Last edited by caz; Yesterday, 11:42 AM.
                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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                • Paul Simon - You Can Call Me Al (Official Video) - YouTube
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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