Pub or Street?

[Michael W Richards]

To bring this thread back on topic, I was reading one of Montague Williams's book about his East End experiences this morning. He claimed Lodging houses sold alcohol under the counter so to speak.

There were places one could still get alcohol after the pubs had closed, for sure. One was the Club on Berner, for members only after hours of course. Since Liz had no alcohol in her blood, its a moot point with this murder. Her killer didn't buy her any drinks. As for who Pipeman was, or who BSM was, neither have any relevance at this point to the question of what happened to Liz because as anyone can easily check to see what value Israel's statement had on the Inquest into how Liz dies. Its also possible neither existed based on that absolute omission.

People who use any aspect of Israel Schwartz's story in their own search for answers here are just creating problems for themselves. But many keep on doing it never the less...year after year. Some even trying to put a name and face on characters in that story apparently.

[Wickerman]

Beer retailer.

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.

Thankya kindly....

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So they arrested the publican of Nelson Beer House?
All he did was go outside, light his pipe, and proceed to walk down Berner St!
What did they arrest him for? Jaywalking?

[DJA]

Go back a few pages and read your own post.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What was the outcome?

[DJA]

Yes.

Kindly pay attention.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Beer retailer.

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.

Would not the police have interviewed such an obvious candidate?

[DJA]

Beer retailer.

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.

[Wickerman]

Was there licencing laws back in the 1880s? I thought they were brought in during WWI?

Best wishes,

Tristan

Licencing rules are detailed in The Police Code published by Neil Bell & Adam Wood. A Beer House was not a Public House, so was not subject to Licencing Rules, nor opening/closing times. I've heard the 'pub' on the corner of Berner St. was called a Public House in some sources and a Beer House in others.
This minute I don't recall which it was.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oh, maybe. I can't recall that, but that doesn't mean it isn't documented. Memory is a horrible thing to rely on, and worse if it is mine! ha ha.

- Jeff

Two men - Best and Gardner - saw her with a man at the Bricklayers Arms in Settles Street just before 11pm.
See Evening News 1 Oct for details.

[JeffHamm]

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?

Tristan

Oh, maybe. I can't recall that, but that doesn't mean it isn't documented. Memory is a horrible thing to rely on, and worse if it is mine! ha ha.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/63806/

Free download, bit of light reading regarding drinking in the LVP.

[Joshua Rogan]

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?
Tristan

Indeed. Although this was nearly two hours before she was found dead.

There was also a possible sighting of Annie in a pub at 5am before her body was found at 6am;

Lloyds Weekly, 9 Sept
"Mr. E. Waldron, the proprietor of the Three Bells [actually the Ten Bells], standing on the corner of Spitalfields market, and which opens early for the convenience of those who bring their goods from the country, was sought out, and one of his assistants was able to state :- "A woman did call in here about five o'clock. She was very poorly dressed, having no bodice to her skirt. She was middle-aged. She just had something to drink, when a man called for her. He just popped his head in the door and retired immediately afterwards. He had on a little skull cap, and was, as far as I could see, without a coat. But he gave me no opportunity of seeing him. I think, however, I should know the face again, and I think I would also know the woman. The description of the woman corresponds to a certain extent, especially with regard to age, hair, and clothing, with that of the victim of to-day.""

Kelly was also reported as being seen drinking in a pub as late as 10am, less than an hour before her body was discovered.

Daily News 10 Nov
"Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public house about ten o'clock yesterday morning, and that she there met Barnet, and had a glass of beer with him."

Whether these were genuine sightings, mis-identifications or misunderstandings is open to debate.

[Losmandris]

I think the times that most of the pubs would have closed is the relevant factor here Tristan. In Pollys case and Annies I don't believe any public houses were still open and one would wonder what they did for the time since their closure until the killing happened. In Stride case, she hadn't been drinking, and Kate hadn't been drinking since just after dinner time. Mary may fit that pattern, if Blotchy bought her drinks at a pub, then got invited in and killed her.

I believe in the case of the murders of Polly and Annie we have one killer posing as a client then when he feels he has the opportunity, he strikes with commitment. He goes to work quickly. The only significant difference in these 2 murders is the degree of mutilations, almost certainly due to his venue choice in the first killing, but the abdominal focus after the killing cuts does seem to indicate a desire to cut further. He chose weaker prey, Polly dizzied by booze, and Annie by illness. I think he let them lead, in Pollys case he got too anxious. But I don't think he had a premeditated escape plan. He wouldn't know ahead of time which prospect he would choose, nor where he would end up with them. I think thats the key to his being a local man. No matter where he killed, he felt he could manage his way out of there.

I think he liked being thought of as some kind of ghost.

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?

Tristan

[Losmandris]

Was it really the case that there were not pubs open at all hours, not necessarily legally. I recall there were such places in the 1990s and would be surprised if there weren't similar "after hours" establishments in the 1880s. They were not supposed to be open, and were often a bit on the dodgy side, but there were places one could go and drink until morning if so inclined. Best not to ask how I know of such things.

- Jeff

Was there licencing laws back in the 1880s? I thought they were brought in during WWI?

Best wishes,

Tristan