Pub or Street?

[DJA]

Packer also ran a costemongers cart and had returned home due to the earlier rain.

[drstrange169]

To bring this thread back on topic, I was reading one of Montague Williams's book about his East End experiences this morning. He claimed Lodging houses sold alcohol under the counter so to speak.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, if they've identified and cleared pipeman then there would be no need to follow up on him further.

The Star Oct 2, indicates that two men were arrested in relation to Schwartz' evidence - one based on description, the other 'on that furnished from another source'.
If the first man is Pipeman, and this man was cleared, what was the other man cleared of?

The fact that both men were cleared tells us nothing about their possible identity.
They may have both had watertight alibis, which had them well away from Berner St that night.
These men were not cleared as Pipeman, they were cleared, in effect, from being Pipeman.

Now we have to ask what 'another source' refers to.

The Star Oct 1:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

Some sort of incident may well have occurred, quite possibly involving Liz Stride, but very different in detail to that described (inconsistently) by Schwartz.
I would suggest that Schwartz has used this incident in creating his own story.
Schwartz' story is a sort of blend of real and fake details, which accounts for its instability.
It must be of concern to Schwartz believers, that the pipe turns into a knife within 24 hours, and that the aggressive behavior of both men in the Star account, makes it unclear who would be the likely murderer.

I'm sure they're not saying they're not going to investigate the murder itself after all.

We both know that's not what I'm suggesting.

I would think that yes, if pipeman had been located and cleared, he would have also added details, or at least corroborated Schwartz's story. Unfortunately, we do not know what information he provided, and so do not know to what extent his description of the night corroborates Schwartz. There's certainly nothing that says Schwartz's story was found to be completely untrue and a total fantasy, but at the same time, we do not have a second witness who's testimony corroborates him either.

Given how seriously Scotland Yard (as opposed to Leman St) seems to have taken Schwartz' statement, we surely would have heard something from someone, at some time, if Schwartz' story has been corroborated. It would have created a minor sensation. We hear nothing, though.

Schwartz's testimony, if one decides it is a true event but goes with Abberline's suggestion that BS was insulting Schwartz, and goes with the notion that pipeman was not involved, would provide a description of JtR (though not overly specific). It also would provide insight into how JtR might sometimes operate (sudden blitz attack, with little actual interaction with the victim). We also have a direction from which he was coming. We also have to wonder why Stride was not mutilated, though a murderer leaving the scene quickly is not entirely surprising and sticking around to mutilate someone might even require JtR to feel safe enough to do so; something about the noisy club might have indicated to him this was not a safe place to continue. The other locations were all at least fairly quiet places, even if they were out in the open.

I'm not sure 'noisy' is an accurate description of the club that night.
I think the acoustics of Berner St and the quietness of the street, would suggest that any screams or cries for help, would have been heard. Yet nothing was.
As for the notion of a blitz attack, let's compare the thuggish behavior of BS Man, with part of the description of the victim's general state, given by PC Lamb:

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

Her face was not more than five or six inches from the wall. Her clothes were not disturbed. No part of her legs was visible, and the boots could scarcely be seen excepting the soles. She looked as if she had lain quietly down. There was no appearance of her having struggled in any way. Her dress was not crumpled.

Does that sound remotely like BS Man?

That's not going to solve things, of course, but there's information there that could help understand events at other murders. But no, Schwartz's testimony is not going to solve the case. If it was, it would be by now since his testimony has been available since 1888. Personally, I don't think there's enough evidence and information currently available to solve the case, and until something new and fresh is discovered, the best we can do is try and sort out the more probable from the less probable, given that at the moment pretty much anything could be possible.

So we need something new and fresh. Let me see what I can come up with ...

[JeffHamm]

The Star Oct 2, indicates that two men were arrested in relation to Schwartz' evidence - one based on description, the other 'on that furnished from another source'.
If the first man is Pipeman, and this man was cleared, what was the other man cleared of?

The fact that both men were cleared tells us nothing about their possible identity.
They may have both had watertight alibis, which had them well away from Berner St that night.
These men were not cleared as Pipeman, they were cleared, in effect, from being Pipeman.

That certainly is possible. Like I said, it may or may not have been that pipeman was identified. The fact that two were arrested and cleared doesn't mean neither could have been pipeman. We don't know enough about these arrests, which is what is so frustrating.

Now we have to ask what 'another source' refers to.

The Star Oct 1:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.


Some sort of incident may well have occurred, quite possibly involving Liz Stride, but very different in detail to that described (inconsistently) by Schwartz.
I would suggest that Schwartz has used this incident in creating his own story.
Schwartz' story is a sort of blend of real and fake details, which accounts for its instability.
It must be of concern to Schwartz believers, that the pipe turns into a knife within 24 hours, and that the aggressive behavior of both men in the Star account, makes it unclear who would be the likely murderer.

I think that sounds very much like what Schwartz describes in many ways, though it suggests there was more than one witness to this, and that no notice was taken. The papers get a lot of things wrong, but the gist of the encounter between the man and women sounds like what Schwartz described. The papers are not great with respect to their accuracy, so I wouldn't put too much stock in every detail, and focus on the ones that are corroborated from the investigation notes and documents. Even those must be viewed carefully.

We both know that's not what I'm suggesting.

I know, I was just having a bit of fun.

Given how seriously Scotland Yard (as opposed to Leman St) seems to have taken Schwartz' statement, we surely would have heard something from someone, at some time, if Schwartz' story has been corroborated. It would have created a minor sensation. We hear nothing, though.

Yes, that is a reasonable expectation. But there's a lot of information missing now. We don't even know why Schwartz didn't testify at the inquest, and there doesn't appear to be any further mention of him in the police files at all. If he had been shown to be telling fibs, I'm sure the police would have informed home office (who took Schartz's statements very seriously), but we just get a big vanishing act. It's another frustrating aspect of the case, the lack of information about how people were cleared, and why witnesses appear to stop being of interest.

I'm not sure 'noisy' is an accurate description of the club that night.
I think the acoustics of Berner St and the quietness of the street, would suggest that any screams or cries for help, would have been heard. Yet nothing was.

The club members were singing and socialising at the time. It might not have been so loud as to cause a disturbance, but I would think that to someone in the ally it was loud enough that they would be aware there were people up and active within the building.

As for the notion of a blitz attack, let's compare the thuggish behavior of BS Man, with part of the description of the victim's general state, given by PC Lamb:

Morning Advertiser, Oct 3:

Her face was not more than five or six inches from the wall. Her clothes were not disturbed. No part of her legs was visible, and the boots could scarcely be seen excepting the soles. She looked as if she had lain quietly down. There was no appearance of her having struggled in any way. Her dress was not crumpled.

Does that sound remotely like BS Man?

No, that sounds like Liz Stride!

Blitz attack just means sudden and unexpectedly. That's what Schwartz describes, BS just stumbles down the street, speaks for a second or two to Liz, then attacks her and throws her to the ground. That would be a blitz attack. It doesn't have to be a frenzied all out assault.

So we need something new and fresh. Let me see what I can come up with ...

We need new evidence is what I mean, not just new theories and ideas. Those, of course, are interesting and useful, but without more evidence to further constrain our ideas, we just get more suggestions to file. Still, it's always interesting to read and consider the ideas people come up with.

- Jeff

[DJA]

Once again ..... pipeman was prolly the prop of the bottleshop having a knockoff pipe,the other being Schwartz.

Blitz attack my ....

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We need new evidence is what I mean, not just new theories and ideas. Those, of course, are interesting and useful, but without more evidence to further constrain our ideas, we just get more suggestions to file. Still, it's always interesting to read and consider the ideas people come up with.

As I see it, it's not so much a question of obtaining more evidence, but of how existing evidence is interpreted.
Perhaps that's what a theory is, but whatever, I believe there is already enough evidence to ascertain the probable identity of JtR.
That is something for another thread, though.

[Leather_Apron]

My opinion is he met them in the street. Thats not to say he didnt "scope" a few out at the pubs. If he had left with any of them from the pubs I feel someone would have remembered such a thing. Im pretty sure things went quickly with Eddowes. Jtr must have known a quick "corner" to find a willing participant. Eddowes must have known the same "corner".

[Losmandris]

Was it really the case that there were not pubs open at all hours, not necessarily legally. I recall there were such places in the 1990s and would be surprised if there weren't similar "after hours" establishments in the 1880s. They were not supposed to be open, and were often a bit on the dodgy side, but there were places one could go and drink until morning if so inclined. Best not to ask how I know of such things.

- Jeff

Was there licencing laws back in the 1880s? I thought they were brought in during WWI?

Best wishes,

Tristan

[Losmandris]

I think the times that most of the pubs would have closed is the relevant factor here Tristan. In Pollys case and Annies I don't believe any public houses were still open and one would wonder what they did for the time since their closure until the killing happened. In Stride case, she hadn't been drinking, and Kate hadn't been drinking since just after dinner time. Mary may fit that pattern, if Blotchy bought her drinks at a pub, then got invited in and killed her.

I believe in the case of the murders of Polly and Annie we have one killer posing as a client then when he feels he has the opportunity, he strikes with commitment. He goes to work quickly. The only significant difference in these 2 murders is the degree of mutilations, almost certainly due to his venue choice in the first killing, but the abdominal focus after the killing cuts does seem to indicate a desire to cut further. He chose weaker prey, Polly dizzied by booze, and Annie by illness. I think he let them lead, in Pollys case he got too anxious. But I don't think he had a premeditated escape plan. He wouldn't know ahead of time which prospect he would choose, nor where he would end up with them. I think thats the key to his being a local man. No matter where he killed, he felt he could manage his way out of there.

I think he liked being thought of as some kind of ghost.

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?

Tristan

[Joshua Rogan]

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?
Tristan

Indeed. Although this was nearly two hours before she was found dead.

There was also a possible sighting of Annie in a pub at 5am before her body was found at 6am;

Lloyds Weekly, 9 Sept
"Mr. E. Waldron, the proprietor of the Three Bells [actually the Ten Bells], standing on the corner of Spitalfields market, and which opens early for the convenience of those who bring their goods from the country, was sought out, and one of his assistants was able to state :- "A woman did call in here about five o'clock. She was very poorly dressed, having no bodice to her skirt. She was middle-aged. She just had something to drink, when a man called for her. He just popped his head in the door and retired immediately afterwards. He had on a little skull cap, and was, as far as I could see, without a coat. But he gave me no opportunity of seeing him. I think, however, I should know the face again, and I think I would also know the woman. The description of the woman corresponds to a certain extent, especially with regard to age, hair, and clothing, with that of the victim of to-day.""

Kelly was also reported as being seen drinking in a pub as late as 10am, less than an hour before her body was discovered.

Daily News 10 Nov
"Another statement is to the effect that Kelly was seen in a public house about ten o'clock yesterday morning, and that she there met Barnet, and had a glass of beer with him."

Whether these were genuine sightings, mis-identifications or misunderstandings is open to debate.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/63806/

Free download, bit of light reading regarding drinking in the LVP.

[JeffHamm]

I was actually thinking of Stride when coming up with this thread. I was under the impression she was seen in the Bricklayers arms drinking with man wearing a billycock hat?

Tristan

Oh, maybe. I can't recall that, but that doesn't mean it isn't documented. Memory is a horrible thing to rely on, and worse if it is mine! ha ha.

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Oh, maybe. I can't recall that, but that doesn't mean it isn't documented. Memory is a horrible thing to rely on, and worse if it is mine! ha ha.

- Jeff

Two men - Best and Gardner - saw her with a man at the Bricklayers Arms in Settles Street just before 11pm.
See Evening News 1 Oct for details.

[Wickerman]

Was there licencing laws back in the 1880s? I thought they were brought in during WWI?

Best wishes,

Tristan

Licencing rules are detailed in The Police Code published by Neil Bell & Adam Wood. A Beer House was not a Public House, so was not subject to Licencing Rules, nor opening/closing times. I've heard the 'pub' on the corner of Berner St. was called a Public House in some sources and a Beer House in others.
This minute I don't recall which it was.

[DJA]

Beer retailer.

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.