Pub or Street?

[drstrange169]

>> What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?<<

Something that attracted his attention enough to be able to describe it.



>> Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?<<

His "Police Code" book specifically told him that it was his job to note it.



>> Dorset Street was probably busy enough in the middle of the night, that observing police beats could be done for a little while at least, without being noticed.<<

How many Yiddish readers lived in Dorset Street?



>>In this case, the AF papers only serve as insurance, just in case he is confronted with a constables 'hello, hello, hello'.<<

Yes, it would have insured that the club would be directly linked to the murders.

[DJA]

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

Prolly with the pony cart,grapes,etc.

OP certainly cannot be blamed for nothing

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

When sold for a penny, they probably only ended up in the hands of those that were genuinely interested - so not many tossed away.

Immediately after the murders, focus was on the yard/square/court - not the nearby street(s).
Later in the day, those streets were packed with people, so in a sense any discarded copies would have vanished - underneath shoes and boots.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.<<

I'm pretty sure, standing in the street in the middle of the night, trying to sell subversive literature would arouse suspicion and be noted by all passing by.

What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?
Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?

Assuming one could read the title in the dark - what sort of suspicion would be aroused by political literature of that kind - that the man was a Socialist or Anarchist?

In the case of Mitre Square, suspicion possibly was aroused, but only in hindsight.

Dorset Street was probably busy enough in the middle of the night, that observing police beats could be done for a little while at least, without being noticed.
In this case, the AF papers only serve as insurance, just in case he is confronted with a constables 'hello, hello, hello'.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

[drstrange169]

>>The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.<<

I'm pretty sure, standing in the street in the middle of the night, trying to sell subversive literature would arouse suspicion and be noted by all passing by.

[Abby Normal]

How well do we know who is affiliated with the club?
Is Elizabeth Stride affiliated?

i personally dont know anyone who was affiliated with the club. i wasnt alive back then.

[DJA]

Stride and Kelly both exited pubs with male company in the hours before their murders.

Eddowes was locked up for being drunk.

[JeffHamm]

They could well have done. If that was the case did they approach him in the street or in a pub I wonder?

Tristan

Hi Tristan,

The only possible sightings of victims with JtR are all in the street. Eddowes appears to have had no money at the time she was released for being drunk, Chapman and Nichols both went out with the stated intention of obtaining money, and Kelly was also known to be behind in her rent and lacked ready money, and Stride's last sighting was of her on the street. There are no cases where the victims were potentially spotted in pubs, however. So, of the two options, it appears the most likely place for them coming into contact was on the street.

Now, Nichols, at least, was sighted after she went out to get money and said she had earned her doss money a few times and spent it on drink that night, so she must have been in a pub at some point, so the lack of reports of the victims being spotted in a pub is just absence of evidence for that possibility, and so the same must be considered for the other cases as well. If so, it may be that JtR spotted potential victims in a pub, and followed them out, approaching suitably intoxicated women.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

thats very clever. but why would someone affilated with the club and or handing out there paper kill at there own location?

How well do we know who is affiliated with the club?
Is Elizabeth Stride affiliated?

[Abby Normal]

A parcel is spotted by a witness, for 3 consecutive murders - Stride, Eddowes, Kelly.

On the first occasion, by PC Smith, who, on his previous tramp through Berner St, spots a man with a woman - the later subsequently being identified at the mortuary, by the constable.
At the inquest:



Then we get this from The Star, Oct 1 '88:



Finally, from George Hutchinson's statement:



This photo of an Arbeter Fraint edition, has a length to height ratio of 2.54:1



Using PC Smith's estimate of 18" for the parcel length, the above ratio would give 7.1" for the height - Smith estimated 6-8".

The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.

thats very clever. but why would someone affilated with the club and or handing out there paper kill at there own location?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A parcel is spotted by a witness, for 3 consecutive murders - Stride, Eddowes, Kelly.

On the first occasion, by PC Smith, who, on his previous tramp through Berner St, spots a man with a woman - the later subsequently being identified at the mortuary, by the constable.
At the inquest:

[Coroner] What did you notice about him?
[Smith] He had a parcel wrapped in a newspaper in his hand. The parcel was about 18in. long and 6in. to 8in. broad.
[Coroner] Did you notice his height?
[Smith] He was about 5ft. 7in.
[Coroner] His hat?
[Smith] He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.
[Coroner] Clothes?
[Smith] His clothes were dark. The coat was a cutaway coat.

Then we get this from The Star, Oct 1 '88:

Mrs. Lindsay, who occupies the two front rooms of 11, Duke-street - almost opposite Church-passage, leading to the court - records a strange circumstance, which may or may not have a direct bearing upon the murder. She says that she is a very light sleeper, and is easily awakened by hearing any unusual noise. Early on Sunday morning she says - at what hour she could not specify - she heard the sound of one or two voices in the street below. Prompted by curiosity she looked out of the window just in time to hear a man's voice say, "I am not the murderer", uttered apparently in a tone of anger. Surprised on hearing the words, she called her husband, who, with her, saw a man disappearing down the street towards Aldgate. As he passed beneath a lamp she was able to discern that he was a man of average height, dressed in dark clothes, and carrying in his hand an umbrella and a small parcel.

Finally, from George Hutchinson's statement:

A man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her. They both burst out laughing. I heard her say alright to him. And the man said you will be alright for what I have told you. He then placed his right hand around her shoulders. He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it. I stood against the lamp of the Queen’s Head Public House and watched him. They both then came past me and the man hid down his head with his hat over his eyes. I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me stern. They both went into Dorset Street I followed them. They both stood at the corner of the Court for about 3 minutes. He said something to her. She said alright my dear come along you will be comfortable He then placed his arm on her shoulder and gave her a kiss. She said she had lost her handkercheif he then pulled his handkercheif a red one out and gave it to her. They both then went up the court together.

Description: age about 34 or 35. height 5 ft 6, complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes, slight moustache curled up each end and hair dark, very surley looking; dress, long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan and a dark jacket under, light waistcoat, dark trousers, dark felt hat turned down in the middle, button boots and gaiters with white buttons, wore a very thick gold chain, white linen collar, black tie with horse shoe pin, respectable appearance, walked very sharp, Jewish appearance. Can be identified.

This photo of an Arbeter Fraint edition, has a length to height ratio of 2.54:1



Using PC Smith's estimate of 18" for the parcel length, the above ratio would give 7.1" for the height - Smith estimated 6-8".

The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.

[DJA]

Henry G Kill , Mr Hyde, Edward Hyde, Inspector Newcomen.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Dr Sequiera	Mr Hyde

[DJA]

I actually reckon she knocked on his door and was in 6 Mitre Street for some time,before he decided to murder her.

Eddowes has told him she was in the clink and could not attend Berner Street with Stride and Carter (BS man).

That's four down, one to go.


Yep.

Conspiracy not to up hold the Law.