Pub or Street?

[DJA]

Yep. One of the cops in the bar.

Ah,the 1960s and 70s.

[drstrange169]

>> Was it really the case that there were not pubs open at all hours, not necessarily legally. I recall there were such places in the 1990s and would be surprised if there weren't similar "after hours" establishments in the 1880s. They were not supposed to be open, and were often a bit on the dodgy side, but there were places one could go and drink until morning if so inclined. Best not to ask how I know of such things.<<

I have experienced such phenomenon in my youth too!

The problem with pub pick ups for would be killers, especially late night "specialized" ones, is that there would be witnesses to tell the tale of any coupling.

[drstrange169]

>> Are you suggesting that Packer was in the habit of wrapping grapes in newspaper ... <<

How does your post relate to the topic in this thread?

[JeffHamm]

Are you suggesting that Packer was in the habit of wrapping grapes in newspaper, in such a way as to make it look to the uninitiated, like a parcel (relatively flat and evenly so), who's dimensions just happen to match that of the publication printed next door?

Berner St had 4 gas lamps, over a span of 350'.
Each lamp has been estimated to be the equivalent of a modern refrigerator light.
The notion that while walking by in that sort of light, Smith should have not only got a look at the man, a good enough look at Stride to identify her at the mortuary, accurately estimate the dimensions of the object, and to tell the difference between a 'parcel wrapped in newspaper' and bundle of Yiddish news print, is absurd.

Berner St was also very narrow, with mostly continuous building on either side.
Sounds would have reverberated across and around, so that anyone close to a door or window would have heard almost anything, and even people at the back of houses would have heard louder sounds.
What would have been very obvious, is a man calling out 'Lipski', and what would have been quite obvious, is a woman 'screaming 3 times, but not very loudly'.
No one heard a thing!
That's because these events did not occur.
Nearly 132 years later, people talk about 'BS Man' and 'Pipeman', as if these fictional characters were real.
Yet, to this day, there is not the slightest evidence that these men actually existed.
To consider these characters seriously, is to temporarily step into the mind of a psychotic.

There are reports of people being brought in and questioned by the police that suggest that Pipeman was, in fact, identified, questioned, and presumably cleared. It's not definitive, as with much of what we have, and the reports could of course be referring to something/someone else (we don't know for sure - that's the annoying thing, is there's a lot of suggestive evidence that appears to be more specific than it really is). However, the fact remains that the reports are consistent with Pipeman being a real, and identified, individual so to assert there's not the slightest evidence that these men actually existed is incorrect. There is some evidence to suggest pipeman may have existed, and was indeed identified.

I'll apologize now for not having the source of those reports at hand, but they're mentioned in a few threads so you'll come across it eventually.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

>>Where did JtR approach his victims? In the pub on the street? Did he buy them a few drinks first or did he simply proposition them on the street? Is there any evidence in favour of one over the other?<<

Logic suggests the latter as the pubs closed long before the murders.

Was it really the case that there were not pubs open at all hours, not necessarily legally. I recall there were such places in the 1990s and would be surprised if there weren't similar "after hours" establishments in the 1880s. They were not supposed to be open, and were often a bit on the dodgy side, but there were places one could go and drink until morning if so inclined. Best not to ask how I know of such things.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Odd how a 'parcel wrapped in newspaper' can transform into a bundle of news print. From barely a few feet away (re: PC Smith) the difference should be quite obvious.

Are you suggesting that Packer was in the habit of wrapping grapes in newspaper, in such a way as to make it look to the uninitiated, like a parcel (relatively flat and evenly so), who's dimensions just happen to match that of the publication printed next door?

Berner St had 4 gas lamps, over a span of 350'.
Each lamp has been estimated to be the equivalent of a modern refrigerator light.
The notion that while walking by in that sort of light, Smith should have not only got a look at the man, a good enough look at Stride to identify her at the mortuary, accurately estimate the dimensions of the object, and to tell the difference between a 'parcel wrapped in newspaper' and bundle of Yiddish news print, is absurd.

Berner St was also very narrow, with mostly continuous building on either side.
Sounds would have reverberated across and around, so that anyone close to a door or window would have heard almost anything, and even people at the back of houses would have heard louder sounds.
What would have been very obvious, is a man calling out 'Lipski', and what would have been quite obvious, is a woman 'screaming 3 times, but not very loudly'.
No one heard a thing!
That's because these events did not occur.
Nearly 132 years later, people talk about 'BS Man' and 'Pipeman', as if these fictional characters were real.
Yet, to this day, there is not the slightest evidence that these men actually existed.
To consider these characters seriously, is to temporarily step into the mind of a psychotic.

[DJA]

I've questioned Wicky a number of times.

He has proven the most knowledgeable poster on this forum.

Indeed,his common sense is most uncommon.

The newspaper parcel would have been a one size fits all and perhaps rather large for 8 ounces of grapes.

[drstrange169]

>>Where did JtR approach his victims? In the pub on the street? Did he buy them a few drinks first or did he simply proposition them on the street? Is there any evidence in favour of one over the other?<<

Logic suggests the latter as the pubs closed long before the murders.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He carried a newspaper parcel if you recall, the man had just bought a half-pound of grapes from Packer.

I'm surprised a comment like this can be made, without anyone objecting, or at least questioning.

The desperate desire to believe the Socialist club had nothing to do with the murders, seems quite common.

[drstrange169]

Yes, I would have thought so.

[Wickerman]

What's being alluded to is that, the 18ins by 6 or 8ins Smith described is about the size of the Club's newspaper. A fact, I think Tom Wescott first noted on this site many, many years ago.

The problem is, Smith doesn't give a depth, which would be an obvious point if it were a large bundle of A.F.'s.

Odd how a 'parcel wrapped in newspaper' can transform into a bundle of news print. From barely a few feet away (re: PC Smith) the difference should be quite obvious.

[JeffHamm]

Thanks Jeff.

This really makes sense to me and I suspect it was probably the case. I imagine that he approached all the women, who were likely intoxicated on the street, taking advantage in this vulnerability.

Am I correct in thinking that all the victims were likely intoxicated at the point of their murder?

Tristan

Hi Tristan,

Polly Nichols was seen prior to her murder and was reported as being quite intoxicated. Annie Chapman, I think, had been drinking prior to leaving the doss house, but was also very ill. It's unclear if she was intoxicated or just showing signs of her illness. Kate Eddowes had been arrested earlier for being drunk, and had only just been released, but she would still have been drunk to some extent. And Mary Kelly was reported to have been drinking I think, and her late night signing seems to suggest she might have been as well. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Elizabeth Stride was drunk that I can recall. So, other than Stride, I believe there is testimony that does point to some level of impairment for all of the victims. Drunkeness, though, was very common in the area, so they would not stand out because of that, but it could still be it made them suitable to JtR's selection criterion.

- Jeff

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

The only possible sightings of victims with JtR are all in the street. Eddowes appears to have had no money at the time she was released for being drunk, Chapman and Nichols both went out with the stated intention of obtaining money, and Kelly was also known to be behind in her rent and lacked ready money, and Stride's last sighting was of her on the street. There are no cases where the victims were potentially spotted in pubs, however. So, of the two options, it appears the most likely place for them coming into contact was on the street.

Now, Nichols, at least, was sighted after she went out to get money and said she had earned her doss money a few times and spent it on drink that night, so she must have been in a pub at some point, so the lack of reports of the victims being spotted in a pub is just absence of evidence for that possibility, and so the same must be considered for the other cases as well. If so, it may be that JtR spotted potential victims in a pub, and followed them out, approaching suitably intoxicated women.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff.

This really makes sense to me and I suspect it was probably the case. I imagine that he approached all the women, who were likely intoxicated on the street, taking advantage in this vulnerability.

Am I correct in thinking that all the victims were likely intoxicated at the point of their murder?

Tristan

[drstrange169]

What's being alluded to is that, the 18ins by 6 or 8ins Smith described is about the size of the Club's newspaper. A fact, I think Tom Wescott first noted on this site many, many years ago.

The problem is, Smith doesn't give a depth, which would be an obvious point if it were a large bundle of A.F.'s.

[Wickerman]

What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?
Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?

He carried a newspaper parcel if you recall, the man had just bought a half-pound of grapes from Packer.

A newspaper parcel typical of the time...