Pub or Street?

[MrBarnett]

So a man who has spent his adult life as a Royal Engineer just meekly becomes a clerk/trainee beadle without trying something else offering adventure.

If he was BS Man,Stride's demise might have been a factor.

Anyway,we're not getting anywhere here,

Have you ever heard of the Corps of Commissionaires?

The tradition of ex-soldiers becoming doormen/receptionists in City offices has a long history. In my day, they still wore bowler hats and their medals. It never occurred to me that any of them might have eased themselves into a sedentary life by roughing up prostitutes in the East End.

I think we have got somewhere. We can be reasonably sure that the handbill had nothing to do with the beadle’s son and we know he took up the career he claimed upon leaving the army.

[DJA]

So a man who has spent his adult life as a Royal Engineer just meekly becomes a clerk/trainee beadle without trying something else offering adventure.

If he was BS Man,Stride's demise might have been a factor.

Anyway,we're not getting anywhere here,

[MrBarnett]

Neil RA Bell also had Carter's address as 305,in his book.

But as Neil has pointed out, he was referring to a Frank Cater, Carter was a typo error. 400 BGR was the location of Cater’s business, as evidenced by the 1891 Census and trade directories. 405 looks like a press error and 305 an error made by modern day authors.

None of this brings the beadle’s son into the mix. He left the army in 1888 and went to live with his family at the Carpenters’ Hall in Throgmorton Avenue, where his career as a clerk/beadle continued for at least 23 years.

On what grounds might we suspect he was running and advertising a business in Bethnal Green by September, 1888? Surely the fact that he may have lived there for the first few months of his life is of little significance.

[DJA]

Neil RA Bell also had Carter's address as 305,in his book.

[MrBarnett]

According to the press reports, the Times says;

'a printed handbill with the name "Frank Cater, 405, Bethnal-green-road," upon it'

though these could be transcription errors.

Do any other papers mention this item being found on Kate's body?

Several other papers have the same info in the same words, so there may have been a single source.

There was a Frank Cater operating a business from 400, Bethnal Green Road. As far as I can tell, the Cater to Carter change is a modern one. I believe Neil Bell pointed out that the use of Carter in his book was a typo.

When Frank Carter left the RE after ten years service in April, 1888, he gave the Carpenters’ Hall as his intended destination and his occupation as ‘clerk’.

For Dave’s theory to be right, he must have had a change of heart and started up a business in BG Road a few yards away from that of Frank Cater, and the police/press must have mistaken his advertising material for that of Cater.

Oh, and then changed his mind back again and followed his father’s career in an administrative role in the Carpenters’ Co.

[DJA]

Hi Joshua.

It varies ..... 305/405 ..... Cater/Carter.

The version here on Casebook reads Cater/405.

Seems to be a Times find that could have been copied. Checked several other papers,zilch.

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Times [London] - 1 October 1888

Frank Carter - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

The Complete Jack The Ripper A-Z - The Ultimate Guide to The Ripper Mystery - Paul Begg & Martin Fido - Google Books

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - An Interview with Andy Aliffe

[Joshua Rogan]

According to the press reports, the Times says;

'a printed handbill with the name "Frank Cater, 405, Bethnal-green-road," upon it'

though these could be transcription errors.

Do any other papers mention this item being found on Kate's body?

[MrBarnett]

I’ve just noticed that 305, Bethnal Green Road is at the junction with Squirries Street, where Hiller Brothers barrow workshop was situated.

[MrBarnett]

When was he attested and for what purpose.

Any idea why Latter Day Saints' 1881 Census records have him in the Royal Engineers?

Getting interesting.

Thanks

Think The Times reported Frank Carter of 305.

The information might have been circulated among the police stations,rather than given to The Times by Abberline.

When he joined the RE. I stopped using the LDS site years ago - too many transcription errors.

You ‘think’ the Times had the name as Carter? So you believe the Beadle Frank Carter was advertising a business that was a few doors away from the business of a Frank Cater? What kind of business would that have been? And why Bethnal Green?

[DJA]

When was he attested and for what purpose.

Any idea why Latter Day Saints' 1881 Census records have him in the Royal Engineers?

Getting interesting.

Thanks

Think The Times reported Frank Carter of 305.

The information might have been circulated among the police stations,rather than given to The Times by Abberline.

[MrBarnett]

As I mentioned, although this Frank Carter had been born in Bethnal Green in 1856, by the time he was Christened in 1858 the family were living at the Carpenter's Hall in the City, where they remained for decades.

When he was attested, this FC weighed 140 lbs and had a 33 in chest.

I’m pretty sure that I found a press report of the grocer/cheesemonger selling dodgy butter from a shop in the BG Road. I can’t for the life of me find it now, though. I’ll keep looking.

It all comes back to me now...

The press reports speak of a handbill bearing the name of Frank Cater (not Carter) 405, BG Road and there was a grocer/cheesemonger of that name operating from a shop at 400, BGR. He was the one who was caught trying to pass margarine off as butter. I don’t know whether he had broad shoulders, but he had some front.

I can’t see any obvious connection between the beadle and either the handbill or BS man.

[MrBarnett]

Doubt the grocer/cheesemonger was actually linked to 305. Pretty sure he wasn't.
Think he shows up in A-Z.

The 1881 Census shows your Beadle's son as a Royal Engineer born in Bethnal Green,1857.
One sister was born there in 1847.
Another born in Shoreditch,1853.
Seem to be locals at that time,with another sister born in London 1859.

By 1888,Frank is old enough to have served his military term and in another career.
He may have joined the ranks of people like Le Grand and Batchelor.

Point being,he does match as broad shouldered man. Age,build and height as an RE.

The attention given to Packer by Le Grand,Batchelor,Abberline and Warren, along with Schwartz not being called to Stride's Inquest ,sees BS Man disappear.

Abberline excluded Frank Carter's card from the "attachment" to Eddowes Inquest.

Suggesting Frank Carter was hired by Eddowes and Stride as muscle is worthy of consideration,especially when you look how the Cleveland Street scandal unfolded the following year.

Cheers.

As I mentioned, although this Frank Carter had been born in Bethnal Green in 1856, by the time he was Christened in 1858 the family were living at the Carpenter's Hall in the City, where they remained for decades.

When he was attested, this FC weighed 140 lbs and had a 33 in chest.

I’m pretty sure that I found a press report of the grocer/cheesemonger selling dodgy butter from a shop in the BG Road. I can’t for the life of me find it now, though. I’ll keep looking.

[DJA]

Doubt the grocer/cheesemonger was actually linked to 305. Pretty sure he wasn't.
Think he shows up in A-Z.

The 1881 Census shows your Beadle's son as a Royal Engineer born in Bethnal Green,1857.
One sister was born there in 1847.
Another born in Shoreditch,1853.
Seem to be locals at that time,with another sister born in London 1859.

By 1888,Frank is old enough to have served his military term and in another career.
He may have joined the ranks of people like Le Grand and Batchelor.

Point being,he does match as broad shouldered man. Age,build and height as an RE.

The attention given to Packer by Le Grand,Batchelor,Abberline and Warren, along with Schwartz not being called to Stride's Inquest ,sees BS Man disappear.

Abberline excluded Frank Carter's card from the "attachment" to Eddowes Inquest.

Suggesting Frank Carter was hired by Eddowes and Stride as muscle is worthy of consideration,especially when you look how the Cleveland Street scandal unfolded the following year.

Cheers.

[MrBarnett]

I can’t seem to find the reference to the grocer (cheesemonger?) FC who I seem to remember was fined for selling adulterated butter and was connected to the 305, Bethnal Green Road address.

[MrBarnett]

Royal Engineers - Wikipedia

Thanks, Dave, but I really didn’t need to look on Wiki to understand who the RE were.

Have you seen Frank Carter’s military record?