Abberline solved the GSG

[Wickerman]

The problem with that scenario is that he went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man.

The problem with that scenario is that ..IF..he went on to kill her, after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man, he was careless in the extreme. Not at all in the character we have formed of the image of the Whitechapel murderer.

Maybe our image is false, but what means do we have to test this image, except by the results we are familiar with across the rest of the murders?

[c.d.]

Hello Wickerman,

It is certainly possible that Liz being pushed to the ground was an accident with the BS man pulling one way and she the other. He might have let go unexpectedly and she fell. Apologies and a show of money might have placated her. The problem with that scenario is that he went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Certainly within the realm of possibilities.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Then we have to believe that Liz had no idea she was in danger even though the BS man had pushed her to the ground and threatened Schwartz.

c.d.

Which most likely lends itself to the attacker being someone else other than BSman.
(ie, BSman is innocent)

Less likely, though not impossible, is that after Schwartz took off, BSman stepped towards Stride all apologetic-like and helped her up.

Why was she holding the paper packet?
Given that the most obvious suggestion (previous post) is being set aside then... some alternates.

- Initially, in the first assault, the packet came out of her pocket, so, after she composed herself, she stooped to pick it up?

- Or, BSman offered the packet to her as a peace offering?

- Alternately, the packet was up the cuff of her sleeve, and just fell into her hand at the time she hit the ground when murdered?

In either case BSman may or may not have been her killer.

We don't know that the cachous/sweetmeats belonged to Stride, just that they were found in her hand, but none in her mouth.

[c.d.]

I didn't understand that point either Lynn. It is precisely because they were still in her hand which speaks to the surprise, no struggle, unable to react in any way, I took it everyone realized this.

None of which supports nor contests the culpability of BSman, its a neutral point.

Then we have to believe that Liz had no idea she was in danger even though the BS man had pushed her to the ground and threatened Schwartz.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"The BS man as Liz's killer has way too many red flags associated with it."

I would go further--it has too many red flags to be other than a story.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

To be fair to Schwartz, he never stated that he saw the BS man kill Liz. He only saw a woman being pushed to the ground.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Ben.
.
.
"The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes no sense whatsoever if the killer took her completely by surprise."

Well, if both are walking out of the yard, yes, perfectly natural.

Cheers.
LC

I didn't understand that point either Lynn. It is precisely because they were still in her hand which speaks to the surprise, no struggle, unable to react in any way, I took it everyone realized this.

None of which supports nor contests the culpability of BSman, its a neutral point.

[GregBaron]

Tom and Jerry

It may be unlikely you all but I don't think we can rule
Out that Jack may have been a stalker who swooped
In after all the witnessed parties moved on...

This cat and mouse game is enjoyed by some murderers..


Greg

[Wickerman]

"The same", Jon, not just "similar".

Take another look Ben, Lawende "thought they were the same", alternately, "he believed they were the same", and then "it was the sort of dress worn by deceased".

When something is the same, there is no doubt. When you 'think', or 'believe' something to be the same, then you express an element of doubt.
And we already know from his own lips that he expressed doubts.
Therefore we know that the clothes Lawende saw were 'similar' to those worn by the woman in Duke St.

Whether they were the same (identical) he could not say for sure.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Ben

Stride being attacked within the estimated range of her t.o.d. Initially, upon his arrival, Blackwell said no more than 20 min prior. Later it was reconfigured to between 20-30 min. Unless I remember incorrectly. Blackwell arrived at 1:16 according to his pocketwatch. For accuracy purposes.

[lynn cates]

deus ex machina

Hello Colin.

"As the police at the time believed that there was a 'Jack', and that Stride was one of his victims, is not the 'deus ex machina' argument one which introduces a separate killer?"

Certainly not. There is no introduction of something outside the scene to save a pre-existing theory.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Ben.

"The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes sense if BS was the killer, as it indicates that Stride may have clenched her fists in preparation for an impending attack."

Yes. But she died about 5 feet west of where she would have met BSM. I'm sure you're not suggesting he came at her as she backed into the yard?

"The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes no sense whatsoever if the killer took her completely by surprise."

Well, if both are walking out of the yard, yes, perfectly natural.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Don't know the bloke's name. But I have never been inspired by deus ex machina arguments--and all to save some silly theory.

As the police at the time believed that there was a 'Jack', and that Stride was one of his victims, is not the 'deus ex machina' argument one which introduces a separate killer?

[Bridewell]

You don't hang for pushing a streetwalker onto her ass.

No, but if you do so at a time when such individuals are having their throats cut, it tends to make you subject of quite a lot of unwanted police attention.

[caz]

Hi all

we know, thanks to Abberline (for once), that Schwartz had a "strong Jewish appearance".

I believe BSM killed Stride. And had no time to mutilate her, since Schwartz could quickly bump into a constable and bring him back to Dutfield's Yard.

Hence the GSG : I killed twice because a Jew just saw me in Berner Street.

Case closed for me.

Bonjour chez vous.

Going back to DVV's initial post, I have no problem with this. There is also the threatening letter dated October 6 (see below), which fits in very well with the scenario described, as it could easily have been directed at Schwartz, considering that the Star gave his address as Backchurch Lane and mentioned his wife:

You though yourself very clever I reckon when you informed the police But you made a mistake if you though I dident see you Now I know you know me and I see your little game, and I mean to finish you and send your ears to your wife if you show this to the police or help them if you do I will finish you. It no use your trying to get out of my way Because I have you when you dont expect it and I keep my word as you soon see and rip you up
Yours truly
Jack the Ripper

You see I know your address

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

"The same", Jon, not just "similar".

Lawende believed the clothes were the same as those presented to him by the police, which carries considerably more weight than a judgment that the clothing was merely "similar", and no, I don't see any evidence that many people "dressed like" Eddowes. There are strong indications that the police considered Lawende's sighting and description be the most important of the many offered in connection with the Whitechapel murders, and it was apparently the only one used in later years as a means of identifying potential suspects. Of all the witness descriptions which we could - and in some cases should - have a problem with, this is definitely not one of them. There is a very compelling reason for accepting that Lawende and co. saw Eddowes and her killer. While the possibility exists that the couple in question were persons other than Eddowes and her killer, the probability most emphatically does not.

I'm with Observer on this one.

Given the time allotted for this couple to saunter down Church Passage, across the square and the attack to commence, followed by mutilations, some have rightly questioned the total allowance of nine minutes (1:35am Lawende - 1:44 am Watkins), for the whole escapade to unfold.

Wrongly questioned, I'd say.

The first doctor on the scene, Dr Sequeria, believed the killer could have completed the mutilations in three minutes, which even allowed time for Eddowes and killer to have hung around for a few minutes longer at the end of Church Passage.

While we're on the subject of distinguishing probabilities from mere possibilities, there can be no doubt that BS as Stride's killer is the most probable explanation (setting aside for a moment the debate over Schwartz's honesty) even if it's not a factually established one. We have evidence of the victim being attacked at the same time as her medically estimated time of death. That ought to a no-brainer, and probably would be if it wasn't for the two-fold preconception that Jack must be responsible and Jack can't possibly behave as BS did. The first of these is open to debate and there are good arguments both for an against, and the second is just plain wrong; based as it is on the erroneous idea that serial killers behave like robots.

The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes sense if BS was the killer, as it indicates that Stride may have clenched her fists in preparation for an impending attack. The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes no sense whatsoever if the killer took her completely by surprise.

All the best,
Ben