Abberline solved the GSG

[GregBaron]

Hungarian ghoulash

Hello CD. Thanks.

Really quite simple. I don't believe his story. But I don't mind "playing along" to see where the rot leads us. IF he is telling the truth, OF COURSE BSM killed Liz. End of story. I believe that is one of the reasons he was concocted.

What the club needed was:

1. A killer who appears at 12.45--the time the AF article claimed she died.

2. A bully.

3. A Gentile who was an anti-Semite.

Sure, they over-egged the pudding a bit, but only the lads at Leman figured that out.

Cheers.
LC

Does this mean you think a crazy Jew from the club offed Stride Lynn?

As for the cachous controversy, I agree with Mr. Wickerman, Stride showed no
signs of preparing for an attack..

Not sure if Schwartz speaketh with a forked tongue...


Greg

[Ben]

If she knew she was about to be attacked, apart from screaming her head off, why would she not have dropped anything she had in her hands in order to fend off her attacker?

She didn't need to drop it.

She could easily have clenched her fists containing the cachous and fought her attacker that way. You're objection to this on the grounds that women don't fight like that because they only use their nails is too silly to bother engaging with.

I have never once read even in a modern forensics report that the victim held on to something trivial because she knew she was about to be attacked.

What you will have read - if you've read any at all - are accounts of women using whatever objects they had at their disposal to fend of their attackers. No, I'm not suggesting Stride used the cachous as a weapon, but it is perfectly plausible that she retained the item in her fist as she attempted to fight off her attacker.

It was a packet of cachous not gold dust.

It might well have been gold dust to a woman in Stride's circumstances.

[c.d.]

I would add that if you are trying to fend someone off, the tendency is to try to push them away with an open palm. That would seem to make it hard to hold on to the cachous.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I'd dispute this just as strongly, Jon.

The presence of cachous in her hands is an argument in favour of - NOT against - the premise that she was fending off an attacker when she died.

If she knew she was about to be attacked, apart from screaming her head off, why would she not have dropped anything she had in her hands in order to fend off her attacker?
Women, tend to use their hands and especially their nails in their own defense, have you not heard?

I have never once read even in a modern forensics report that the victim held on to something trivial because she knew she was about to be attacked.
That is just plain inconsistent with common sense.

She would have released them immediately had she been taken entirely by surprise.

How on earth could you possibly arrive at such a conclusion. It was a packet of cachous not gold dust.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

That assumes that the club needed a story as opposed to simply cooperating with the police. You also have to give kudos to Schwartz for being willing to lie to the police in a murder investigation.

"IF he is telling the truth, OF COURSE BSM killed Liz."

I think he was telling the truth as he saw it but I have to disagree with your conclusion.

c.d.

[c.d.]

ESTIMATED time of death not the actual time of death. I just recently read an article by a forensic pathologist which I will post if I can find. In it, he talks about how difficult it is even today to accurately determine the time of death even with all the types of tests that are available. So I would have to take an ETD from 1888 with a big grain of salt.

c.d.

[Ben]

Ok, then let me restate the case, all indications of a physical nature, her posture, her hands not used for defense, her clothes not disturbed, the apparently placid facial features, nothing to indicate she had time to respond either physically or emotionally.

I'd dispute this just as strongly, Jon.

The presence of cachous in her hands is an argument in favour of - NOT against - the premise that she was fending off an attacker when she died. She would have released them immediately had she been taken entirely by surprise. Unless her clothes were made of crepe paper, it's very difficult to tell whether or not they had been pulled about immediately prior to her death. Facial features are an equally dubious barometer of assessing the likelihood of a struggle.

The fact remains that what Schwartz witnessed could have been separated from the actual murder by as much as 10 minutes.

It's not impossible, certainly, but when we have an attack taking place around the medically estimated time of death, there can be no doubt as to the most probable explanation, which is that the attacker and murderer were one and the same.

Why else would she be standing there if not with man?

Waiting for the next client to come along, presumably.

Regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

one big subjunctive

Hello CD. Thanks.

Really quite simple. I don't believe his story. But I don't mind "playing along" to see where the rot leads us. IF he is telling the truth, OF COURSE BSM killed Liz. End of story. I believe that is one of the reasons he was concocted.

What the club needed was:

1. A killer who appears at 12.45--the time the AF article claimed she died.

2. A bully.

3. A Gentile who was an anti-Semite.

Sure, they over-egged the pudding a bit, but only the lads at Leman figured that out.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"I just don't see the BS man as her killer."

Right. But, if he existed, he was.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I don't get your thinking on this. You acknowledge that Schwartz only saw Liz being pushed to the ground and nothing more and that she was very much alive when Schwartz left the scene. But you don't believe Schwartz's story because you don't think the BS man was Liz's killer. Schwartz never said that he was.

And now you are saying that if he existed, he was. I'm just not following you.

c.d.

[DVV]

Good old Schwartz !
He has fabricated a suspect that resembles both the man seen by Marshall and Sailor Man.

Hats-off ! (with peak)

[lynn cates]

well done

Hello (again) CD.

"If he was that committed to the deed and was just too far gone to stop, wouldn't we expect Liz's body to be found on the exact same spot where Schwartz saw her being pushed to the ground?"

I believe so. And I applaud you for noticing the difference in these two points. This is one of my major complaints against Liz theorists.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

existence

Hello CD.

"I just don't see the BS man as her killer."

Right. But, if he existed, he was.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

It came without warning.

Hello Jon.

"All indications are that Stride was taken completely by surprise, no threats, no warnings, she had no idea what was about to happen.
This is consistent with the killer being someone else other than BS man."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

And the idea that BS killed Stride has considerably more popularity and mainstream support than the idea that he didn't.

Yes, Ben.
And it's quite funny to observe how people on this site think their hair-splitting canonical.
If you listen to them, Mrs Mortimer is the ultimate proof of Schwartz' mythomania, BSM isn't a suspect anymore, and in all probability Eddowes and Stride have been killed by two different guys.
Now I need a Talisker.

[Wickerman]

No indications point that way.

Eyewitness evidence in the form of Schwartz indicates that an attack took place around the time she was murdered.

Ok, then let me restate the case, all indications of a physical nature, her posture, her hands not used for defense, her clothes not disturbed, the apparently placid facial features, nothing to indicate she had time to respond either physically or emotionally.

The fact remains that what Schwartz witnessed could have been separated from the actual murder by as much as 10 minutes.
A lot can happen in 10 minutes, it only takes 1-2 minutes for another man to walk down Berner St., someone whom we know nothing about.

Every ounce of common sense should therefore inform us that the two were probably linked, and that BS was almost certainly Stride's killer.

The possibility exists, thats all, but there are also other possibilities.

I don't see anything in the existing record which discounts the possibility of Stride actually being with a man in Dutfields Yard right at the time BSman staggered passed.
PC Smith had just seen her standing opposite with another man, either he left the scene, or she took him across the road into the shadows for a bit of 'hows-yer-father'. Why else would she be standing there if not with man?

Stride had not been seen by herself once that night, so why now?