Abberline solved the GSG

[Ben]

On BS killing Stride despite being seen by witnesses; I suppose it depends on whether BS was a one-off killer or the the actual ripper. If the latter, it can be argued very persuasively that he was already too far mentally committed to the deed to abort at the last moment. An additional consideration is the perceived necessity to dispatch the most important and most incriminating witness of all, i.e. Stride herself had he allowed her to live, thereafter to inform the police, press and public.

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave.

Hi Jon

How can you say he was "careless in the extreme" ?
In that scenario, having also been seen by Stride, he dispatched her and fled (in case Schwartz or Pipo would bump into a policeman).

Haven't we had this exchange before?
The question arose, why kill her?

BSman is seen assaulting Stride, you don't hang for pushing a streetwalker down on her ass, so Schwartz only witnesses an assault.

Now (in your view) BSman turns around and sliced her throat?, which elevates the importance of what Schwartz saw. There was no need to do this, ie; "careless in the extreme".

I'd like also to point out again that if BSM was JtR, he obviously fled because of Schwartz and Pipo. Diemshutz has nothing to do here.

I'm flexible on her time of death, but I'm saying he had no reason to flee due to Schwartz, she wasn't dead when Schwartz passed the scene.
I'm not seeing a good enough reason for BSman to carry on and murder a woman after being seen by two men roughing her up.

It's a serious flaw (that you can find even in excellent books, for example, Begg The Facts), to consider at the same time that BSM was the killer and have been disturbed by Diemshutz.

I don't disagree, but equally your own hypothesis also has a serious flaw.

In other terms : if the killer has been disturbed by Diemshutz, BSM is innocent.

BSman was clearly not disturbed by Schwartz, he proceeded to kill her. (Your view?)

[Ben]

I'd like also to point out again that if BSM was JtR, he obviously fled because of Schwartz and Pipo.

Absolutely, David.

When something is the same, there is no doubt. When you 'think', or 'believe' something to be the same, then you express an element of doubt.

That's true, Jon, but note the crucial distinction between the two sentences:

I believe they were the same.

I believe they were similar.

Lawende stated the former, which carries considerably more weight towards cementing an identification than an observation that they were merely "similar", and goes some way to accounting for the police interest in Lawende as a witness.

Yes. But she died about 5 feet west of where she would have met BSM. I'm sure you're not suggesting he came at her as she backed into the yard?

No, Lynn, I think it's far more likely that BS pulled out a knife after Schwartz and pipeman fled the scene and used this as a means of both silencing her and coaxing her into the darkness of the yard, possibly with false assurances that he wasn't going to hurt her; that he just wanted to use her services for free. Once it became apparent that he did intend further violence, it is likely that a brief struggle occurred before BS killed her.

Well, if both are walking out of the yard, yes, perfectly natural.

Not really. If Stride's killer took her completely by surprise, blind instinct would cause her to release the cachous. This reality, coupled with Schwartz's evidence points squarely away from Stride being taken by surprise by her killer.

All the best,
Ben

[Cogidubnus]

Nice one David...I think you've established your fork in the flow chart.

All the best

Dave

[DVV]

The problem with that scenario is that ..IF..he went on to kill her, after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man, he was careless in the extreme.

Hi Jon

How can you say he was "careless in the extreme" ?
In that scenario, having also been seen by Stride, he dispatched her and fled (in case Schwartz or Pipo would bump into a policeman).

That said, I've never thought JtR was careful in the extreme.

I'd like also to point out again that if BSM was JtR, he obviously fled because of Schwartz and Pipo. Diemshutz has nothing to do here.

It's a serious flaw (that you can find even in excellent books, for example, Begg The Facts), to consider at the same time that BSM was the killer and have been disturbed by Diemshutz.

In other terms : if the killer has been disturbed by Diemshutz, BSM is innocent.

[Bridewell]

The problem with that scenario is that ..IF..he went on to kill her, after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man, he was careless in the extreme. Not at all in the character we have formed of the image of the Whitechapel murderer.

Maybe our image is false.

Good point, Jon. How do we know that the killer was as careful as we suppose? Perhaps he wasn't careful, just lucky and always attacked in the same reckless manner - but was seen to do so on this one occasion only. This is where I have difficulty with the whole "Murderer can't have been interrupted" scenario. If what Schwartz saw was not a mere assault but the initial stage of a Ripper murder then, by definition, there was an interruption, but by Schwartz, not Dimshits. (I concede the magnitude of the 'if' there btw, to save anyone the need for pointing it out!)

[lynn cates]

moved

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Somewhat similar to when you put your finger in the palm of a baby's hand...the fingers curl up."

Absolutely. But the finger in the palm is in the palm, not between thumb and finger. Unless it moves. An adult's finger? Sure. Inanimate cachous? Likely not.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

begone

Hello CD. Thanks.

"His story would certainly be consistent with a club member or someone associated with the club taking offense at Liz standing there and pushing her (perhaps accidentally) while trying to get her to move. He calls her a dumb bitch and goes on his way."

Agree. Could it be followed by, "You'd better be gone."?

Then he stops inside for a minute or two. Comes out, she's in the yard (cachous now in hand), "I thought I told yo to go away?" It escalates.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"the packet was up the cuff of her sleeve, and just fell into her hand at the time she hit the ground when murdered?"

Fell between her open finger and thumb, and, just at that moment, clenched them?

Cheers.
LC

Somewhat similar to when you put your finger in the palm of a baby's hand...the fingers curl up.

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"Then we have to believe that Liz had no idea she was in danger even though the BS man had pushed her to the ground and threatened Schwartz."

Another good reason to doubt his story.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

His story would certainly be consistent with a club member or someone associated with the club taking offense at Liz standing there and pushing her (perhaps accidentally) while trying to get her to move. He calls her a dumb bitch and goes on his way.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

miracle

Hello Jon.

"the packet was up the cuff of her sleeve, and just fell into her hand at the time she hit the ground when murdered?"

Fell between her open finger and thumb, and, just at that moment, clenched them?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I 'ave me doubts.

Hello CD.

"Then we have to believe that Liz had no idea she was in danger even though the BS man had pushed her to the ground and threatened Schwartz."

Another good reason to doubt his story.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no witness

Hello CD. Thanks.

"To be fair to Schwartz, he never stated that he saw the BS man kill Liz. He only saw a woman being pushed to the ground."

Quite agree.

Which should give pause to anyone claiming Schwartz was a later witness.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

indeed

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"It is precisely because they were still in her hand which speaks to the surprise, no struggle, unable to react in any way, I took it everyone realized this."

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Yes, I meant IF. It was careless or incredible bravado by her killer be it the Whitechapel murderer or someone else.

c.d.