Abberline solved the GSG

[caz]

Hi Mike,

You are not even sure that BS man existed, which makes mincemeat of your confident assertion that Stride's killer (if not BS man) would have had no time to arrive at the yard and cut her throat. If Schwartz lied, he could have made the whole thing up or lied about the time he saw Stride being assaulted, so you cannot rely on his 12.45 to argue that Jack (or whoever) could not have come along shortly afterwards. In fact, if you want to take Schwartz out of the equation, you have to take BS man out too, in which case the killer (Jack or not) presumably arrived while there were no witnesses around to know that Schwartz, BS man and Pipeman were never there!

You keep saying that if BS existed then he surely killed Stride (and I don't disagree - I'm open to more than one possibility here), but it's all a bit tenuous if you have doubts that he did exist. You are then left with a blank page.

I would still urge you to look at what happened in the case of Sally Anne Bowman, where her killer - a total stranger - popped up out of nowhere the instant her ex boyfriend left the scene after a long argument.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Digalittledeeper, youre correct, my beliefs may have nothing at all to do with the true facts here, I can only state that based on my own observations, and in sync with the contemporary medical experts, the killer of Mary Ann Nichols and Annie Chapman ultimate objective was to mutilate the women post mortem and obtain internal organs. Thats also my theory, and it has actual evidence and professional observation attached.

There is no such evidence known in existence that supports a similar theory for Liz Strides killer, nor is there any evidence at all that the murder was prematurely halted. It can therefore be logically concluded based on those facts that the killer of Liz Strides ultimate objective did not match that of the killer of Polly and Annie. In fact the evidence suggests that Liz Strides killer intentionally murdered her, and little else.

So...this isnt my position, Im just the messenger here.

And cd......you will believe what you want to believe, as will I,...but you have the distinct disadvantage of having already made up your mind that one man killed the 5 women in question...and so your perspective on any individual issue is blurred by that final stand. You say that there was "plenty of time", even though, based on rough times and hearsay evidence, there wasnt...when Schwartz says he saw Liz she is between 1 and 11 minutes...roughly...from having her throat cut. She is on the ground, in the street. She has BSM still with her. Your suggesting that she has plenty of time to get rid of BSM, then get into the yard, meet someone else, and then be suddenly attacked and discarded. Does that really seem like a logical bet to you? In reality she could have spent that last 10 minutes simply trying to get rid of BSM...leaving you again....with a lousy Jack the Ripper suspect.

I dont know who killed any of the Canonicals...but I have strong, scholarly suspicions about who didnt kill at least 1 of them.

Maybe trying to solve 1 murder at a time would be more fruitful cd.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You are right, I don't know how long the BS man might have lingered but then again neither do you. You don't know if any of the times you mention are exact but you want us to believe they are Gospel.

What is the difference between Jack "magically" appearing on the scene and simply appearing? Do you know where he was that night? Did he "magically" appear a short distance away and an hour later and kill Kate?

I should probably not have said that there was "plenty" of time for Jack to do his thing but there was definitely time. Estimates of time are simply that. Estimates. Jack only needed a few minutes.

"A lot of folks in this world create individual arguments so that they will support their end beliefs."

I couldn't have said it better myself, Michael.

c.d.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;262367
And I cannot accept that the man that killed Polly and Annie would not attempt to mutilate the corpse next time round.

Sorry, really not trying to be an a$$, but it is not a requirement that you accept it for it to be the case. I'm not pro-ripper here but to remove it as a possibilty just might be folly. No disrespect intended.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

I don't think I missed anything. As always, you insist that all times are written in stone. I mean to the second and even the nanosecond. You need them to be that way for your argument to hold water. The reality is that there was plenty of time for Liz's killer (be it Jack or otherwise) to appear after the BS man left. The BS man as Liz's killer has way too many red flags associated with it. As for "physical abuse" all he did was push her. And Liz is still alive after Schwartz leaves the scene.

c.d.

The part in bold proves my previous statement cd....there was definately NOT "plenty of time" for someone to appear after BSM would have left....she was possibly cut as early as 12:46 cd....and she was cut before 12:56. There was in fact a very short window in which anyone might pop in. You dont know how long BSM might have lingered...you dont know if he hung around until 12:50 ish....you only know Fanny didnt see anyone outside the gates from 12:50 until 1am.

If youd be honest here cd youd admit that the reason you are willing to argue that someone magically appears in those last few minutes is because you believe Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride, and you realize that BSM is a lousy suspect for Jack.The truth is.... IF the story is true then he is a great candidate for her killer..by far the best suspect. And hardly Jack-like.

Im not blaming you for trying to fit Jack the Ripper in places he doesnt belong...a lot of folks in this world create individual arguments so that they will support their end beliefs.....like that Kates facial wounds reflect the anger he felt after he was "interrupted" with Liz.....a solution readily acceptable to Ripper believers, but without any supporting physical evidence.

As far as the evidence in Liz Strides case goes, there is no evidence as foundation on which to state that the killer was either interrupted or that he wasnt completely satisfied simply killing her.

And I cannot accept that the man that killed Polly and Annie would not attempt to mutilate the corpse next time round.

Cheers

[DVV]

Exactly, Lynn.
And that Marschwartz man cannot be blanc-bleu.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

red flags

Hello (again) CD.

"The BS man as Liz's killer has way too many red flags associated with it."

I would go further--it has too many red flags to be other than a story.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Newton

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Why are you having such a hard time putting Jack on the scene?"

Because there is no evidence for his being there. And that with respect to whichever witness/es you choose to accept.

"He did frequent the streets of Whitechapel did he not?"

Umm, no. As you recall, I believe that's all nonsense.

"If you can imagine anybody appearing after the BS man left . . ."

Well, if BS was doing his thing at 12.45 and Liz was cut between 12.46 and 12.56 . . .

". . . why could it not have been Jack?"

Don't know the bloke's name. But I have never been inspired by deus ex machina arguments--and all to save some silly theory.

Let me put it another way. If I can explain why a stone falls to the ground based on Sir Isaac's theory of universal gravitation, why must I go back and interpolate a "stone spirit"?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Michael,

I don't think I missed anything. As always, you insist that all times are written in stone. I mean to the second and even the nanosecond. You need them to be that way for your argument to hold water. The reality is that there was plenty of time for Liz's killer (be it Jack or otherwise) to appear after the BS man left. The BS man as Liz's killer has way too many red flags associated with it. As for "physical abuse" all he did was push her. And Liz is still alive after Schwartz leaves the scene.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Lynn,

It seems like you are trying to connect Jack with the BS man incident. Jack would have had no control over what took place before he arrived on the scene. Obviously, I don't know where Jack was. He might have missed the whole BS man incident which would rule out him offering consolation. He might have been walking down the street arriving a few minutes after the BS man left and approached Liz thinking she was soliciting. Why are you having such a hard time putting Jack on the scene? He did frequent the streets of Whitechapel did he not? If you can imagine anybody appearing after the BS man left, why could it not have been Jack?

c.d.

cd, you seem to miss the critical point within that argument.....IF the BSM incident did happen as it was described by Israel Schwartz then that man is almost certainly also her killer.....and by implication when later linked with Mitre Square,...Jack. There is no time, as youve suggested, for this Jack fellow to arrive after BSM and Pipeman...for one thing we have no idea when BSM, or if BSM, left that location or Liz's side. We dont even know if he exists as well...but that another argument. We do know the claim is that the altercation happened at 12:45 according to the witness and we know that Liz may have been cut as early as 12:46 by Blackwell's estimates.

Face it...if you want to proclaim this murder a Ripper murder, you are almost forced to accept that the killer, and Ripper, is BSM. By the fact he is already with the victim and displaying some form of physical abuse to her very near the time of her death, and the fact that there is very little time left for Liz Stride after that alleged altercation. And according to Israel...she isnt even at the spot she is killed yet.

Cheers cd

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

It seems like you are trying to connect Jack with the BS man incident. Jack would have had no control over what took place before he arrived on the scene. Obviously, I don't know where Jack was. He might have missed the whole BS man incident which would rule out him offering consolation. He might have been walking down the street arriving a few minutes after the BS man left and approached Liz thinking she was soliciting. Why are you having such a hard time putting Jack on the scene? He did frequent the streets of Whitechapel did he not? If you can imagine anybody appearing after the BS man left, why could it not have been Jack?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

lurking

Hello CD. Thanks.

"If she were killed before any type of sex took place (oral or otherwise) then there would be no traces of semen."

Quite. So, no sex that night? Agreed.

"Now if she were visibly upset by the BS man incident, as you seem to suggest, I can see Jack in the role of consoler. "Are you okay, Miss? I saw what happened. You're shaking. I'll bet you could use a drink. I have a bottle with me. Let's step back into the yard in case that guy comes back.""

Alright. So, where do you think "Jack" was whilst:

1. Schwartz passed by,

2. BS assaulted Liz,

3. Pipe man watched, then went after BSM?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... I forget the whole story, (a lesson in trying to remember the facts many years after the event, I'm thinking Abberline, Dew, et al here)

Anderson, Swanson, etc. yes, I get it, and I agree.

But recognised nevertheless.

Only her clothes were acknowledged to have been similar, given these women all dressed alike anyway, and it was only a fleeting rear view of her, more caution should have been expressed.
In fact I might be able to find where Swanson expressed his opinion that Lawende's failure to identify her face is a serious drawback (I think it was Swanson).

It would take a huge leap of faith, certainly one I would fail to take, to even contemplate that it was anyone other than Kate Eddowes and her killer whom Lawende, Harris, and Levy saw that night. I honestly do not know where you are coming from in suggesting anything to the contrary. Who else could it have been?

Prostitute central was just a few hundred yards down at the corner, its not as if the streets were empty of people. Given the time allotted for this couple to saunter down Church Passage, across the square and the attack to commence, followed by mutilations, some have rightly questioned the total allowance of nine minutes (1:35am Lawende - 1:44 am Watkins), for the whole escapade to unfold.

It is very possibly that Eddowes and her killer were already in the Square when Lawende & Co. exited the Club.
At the very least, I have yet to see an argument which suggests it is unlikely.

[c.d.]

"My best guess is that she was with a client and that she either wanted to have fresh breath for him (maybe she was self conscious of having bad teeth and bad breath) or they came out in preparation for dealing with the results of oral sex."

Well, she simmered down quickly from her fracas to have accepted a client. And, if the latter, there would have been traces.

Hello Lynn,

I think the whole BS man incident was so relatively minor that she simply shook it off. If she were soliciting, I don't think that it would have dissuaded her from accepting a client shortly afterwards.

If she were killed before any type of sex took place (oral or otherwise) then there would be no traces of semen.

Now if she were visibly upset by the BS man incident, as you seem to suggest, I can see Jack in the role of consoler. "Are you okay, Miss? I saw what happened. You're shaking. I'll bet you could use a drink. I have a bottle with me. Let's step back into the yard in case that guy comes back."

c.d.

[Observer]

Yes, the police appear to have more faith in Lawende than he had in himself.

We don't know that. My opinion is that Lawende regretted the the whole affair, it was a huge inconvienience to him, as it would be to anyone.

A freind of mine, whilst I was in the army, was a witness at the Black Panther trial. His house was located not far from the drain where Leslie Whittle was eventually found. I forget the whole story, (a lesson in trying to remember the facts many years after the event, I'm thinking Abberline, Dew, et al here) but I believe my freind was walking his dog, although I'm not sure, when he saw Neilson hanging around that area. To cut a long story short my freind revealed to me that he'd wished he'd never saw Neilson that day, he was forever being interviewed by various police officers.

Perhaps Lawende felt something similar to my freind, and played down his worth to the inquiry to get some peace. I have no doubts he got a decent look at the man he saw talking to Kate Eddowes.

However, all parties; the witness (Lawende), the City (McWiliam) and the Met. (Swanson) appear to agree on one thing, that the dead woman was only tentatively recognised by her clothes, and the man could not be recognised again, then the detailed description of this man, which incidentally evolved over time, may not be as sound as everyone thought.

But recognised nevertheless. It would take a huge leap of faith, certainly one I would fail to take, to even contemplate that it was anyone other than Kate Eddowes and her killer whom Lawende, Harris, and Levy saw that night. I honestly do not know where you are coming from in suggesting anything to the contrary. Who else could it have been?