The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Joshua Rogan]

There's also this report (is this the one you were thinking of Simon?) from the Evening News 11 Oct.

"A great deal of fresh evidence will be given to the adjourned inquest, which will be held to-day, at the City Coroner's Court, Golden-lane, upon the body of the Mitre-square victim. Since the adjournment, Shelton, the Coroner's officer, has, with the assistance of the City Police authorities, discovered several new witnesses, including the daughter of the deceased, who was found to be occupying a respectable situation as a domestic in the neighbourhood of Kennington. She states that they saw the deceased standing at the corner of Duke-street, Aldgate, a few minutes' walk from Mitre-square. This was as near as they can recollect about half-post one o'clock, and she was then alone. They recognized her on account of the white apron she was wearing."

Seems to say that it was Kate's daughter that saw her, which is a bit of a coincidence....
I don't recall that ever coming out at the inquest.

Sounds more like a garbled version of Lawende's sighting.

[Leanne]

She was, because she's explicitly described as having one tied around her neck.

WHERE? -

1 piece of red gauze silk worn as a neckerchief

[Wickerman]

The why is there is blood on the Gs piece and there is no blood on the mortuary piece?

Her intestines were thrown over the shoulder which could be the reason for blood spots on the mortuary piece.

.......and why would he bother to cut or tear a piece at that early stage. If organ taking was the motive then he would have gone prepared with something to take them away with. A ridiculous suggestion you make to prop up the old accepted theory.

Why would he come prepared with Eddowes, she appears to have been an after thought. Do you think he planned to have two victims that night?

How many times are you going to be told that the description of the apron piece is not consistent with carrying away a kidney and a uterus taken from a freshly killed victim.

You have no idea of the extent of blood stains on the G.S. piece for you to draw such a conclusion.

[Trevor Marriott]

The providence of that "pic" is impeccable.

It is not impeccable !
The drawing by Foster was not made by him while the body was in situ. He never attended the crime scene. It seems that he made the drawing from Dr Browns notes or perhaps a sketch made by Brown, although Brown makes no mention of making a sketch otherwise he would have produced it as evidence.

As can be see the sketch is not in line with the verbal evidence

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

PC Hutt noted that Eddowes was wearing her apron at 1.00 am when released.

and his memory suddenly reappeared days after the event when he gave his inquest testimony. What would have made him take note of Eddowes wearing an apron when she left the police station and how could he remember if she was or wasn't days later.

The fact is that the police were naive enough to readily accept without question that the killer cut a piece of her apron and so they all went along with the corroboration except Sgt Byfield who was the station Sgt responsible for processing her after her arrest, and questioning her and then later releasing her. He makes no mention of seeing her wearing a statement, and I would have thought if anyone was relaible he would have been. So its not as conclusive as you make out.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Jesus H Chri......
It was HIM who threw her clothing upside down, when she was originally laid down her clothing was in order, her coat no doubt open, exposing the apron. He lifted it up and sliced off a large piece, then set about pulling up her clothing out of the way.

Then why is there is blood on the Gs piece, and there is no blood on the mortuary piece?

It only stands to reason to me that he cut a section off before he mutilated her, which might suggest he thought ahead, he wanted something to drop the organs in as he cut them out. Then folded up the rag, with organs inside, and took off...

and why would he bother to cut or tear a piece at that early stage. If organ taking was the motive then he would have gone prepared with something to take them away with. A ridiculous suggestion you make to prop up the old accepted theory.

How many times are you going to be told that the description of the apron piece is not consistent with carrying away a kidney and a uterus taken from a freshly killed victim.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

Cheers Dave. Haven't got my books handy at present so that's handy.

Just wondering if they had John Kelly confirm her belongings and clothing, to see if anything was missing?
If not, as well as the apron piece, the killer might easily have taken her draws, or picked a pocket or two, to carry away organs, or for his own purposes.

Hi Buddy.

John Kelly turned up due to the two pawn tickets in the tin. Doubt anything was missing,except half an apron

For mine,Eddowes would have been with Stride and BS man for a blackmail payout,except she got drunk with a small prepayment.Her health was not good and she would be feeling the effects of the return journey from hopping.
After being released as Mary Ann Kelly,the next victims real name,she headed for Henry .... um,Jack's London residence when away from Sevenoaks.
She had no idea Stride was dead.
Jack has immobilised Eddowes,quite possibly by strangling her, and taken her out the back of 6 Mitre Street until the first policeman has been through.
Eddowes kidney and adrenal gland would have been of interest to him,if she and Nichols were his inpatients with rheumatic fever in 1867/8.Ditto the intestines.
He has taken the body parts upstairs and put then in ethanol.
When the coast was clear he headed for Goulston Street with the red herring. Ironically William Gull had delivered the Lectures in 1848.
Have a good look at the uncanny timing.

[Joshua Rogan]

Meh,so you prefer Evans and Skinner.



At mortuary, body was stripped and a piece of ear droped from the clothing.⁹⁹

Insp Collard itemized Catherine's possessions:¹⁰⁰

1. Pair of men's lace up boots with mohair laces, right boot fixed with red thread; Red guaze silk (worn about the neck); 1 large white handkerchief; 2 unbleached calico pockets; 1 blue stripe bed ticking pocket with waist band and strings; 1 white cotton pocket handkerchief with red and white birds eye border; 1 pair of brown ribbed stockings with white mended feet; 12 pieces of white rag; 1 piece of white coarse linen; 1 piece of blue and white shirting -- three cornered; 2 small blue bed ticking bags; 2 short black clay pipes; 1 tin box with tea; 1 tin box with sugar; 1 piece of flannel; 6 pieces of soap; 1 small tooth comb; 1 white handle table knife; 1 metal tea spoon; 1 red leather cigarette case with white metal fittings; 1 empty tin match box; 1 piece of red flannel with with pins and needles; a ball of hemp; and a piece of old white apron.¹⁰¹
   
   She was wearing a black straw bonnet with green and black velvet, black beads, and black strings; a black cloth jacket trimmed with fake fur at the collar and cuffs and 2 outside pockets trimmed with black sik braid and fake fur; a chintz skirt -- 3 flounces with a brown button on the waistband; A brown linsey dress bodice with a black velvet collar and brown metal buttons down the front; a grey stuff petticoat with a white waistband; a very old green alpaca skirt; a very old ragged blue skirt with a red flounce and light twill lining; a white calico chemise; a man's white vest with button to match down front and 2 outside pockets; she had no drawers or stays.¹⁰²

DC Halse noticed a piece of apron was missing.¹⁰³

Cheers Dave. Haven't got my books handy at present so that's handy.

Just wondering if they had John Kelly confirm her belongings and clothing, to see if anything was missing?
If not, as well as the apron piece, the killer might easily have taken her draws, or picked a pocket or two, to carry away organs, or for his own purposes.

[DJA]

And that's the result when you rely on someone else's research, or lack thereof.

Meh,so you prefer Evans and Skinner.



At mortuary, body was stripped and a piece of ear droped from the clothing.⁹⁹

Insp Collard itemized Catherine's possessions:¹⁰⁰

1. Pair of men's lace up boots with mohair laces, right boot fixed with red thread; Red guaze silk (worn about the neck); 1 large white handkerchief; 2 unbleached calico pockets; 1 blue stripe bed ticking pocket with waist band and strings; 1 white cotton pocket handkerchief with red and white birds eye border; 1 pair of brown ribbed stockings with white mended feet; 12 pieces of white rag; 1 piece of white coarse linen; 1 piece of blue and white shirting -- three cornered; 2 small blue bed ticking bags; 2 short black clay pipes; 1 tin box with tea; 1 tin box with sugar; 1 piece of flannel; 6 pieces of soap; 1 small tooth comb; 1 white handle table knife; 1 metal tea spoon; 1 red leather cigarette case with white metal fittings; 1 empty tin match box; 1 piece of red flannel with with pins and needles; a ball of hemp; and a piece of old white apron.¹⁰¹
   
   She was wearing a black straw bonnet with green and black velvet, black beads, and black strings; a black cloth jacket trimmed with fake fur at the collar and cuffs and 2 outside pockets trimmed with black sik braid and fake fur; a chintz skirt -- 3 flounces with a brown button on the waistband; A brown linsey dress bodice with a black velvet collar and brown metal buttons down the front; a grey stuff petticoat with a white waistband; a very old green alpaca skirt; a very old ragged blue skirt with a red flounce and light twill lining; a white calico chemise; a man's white vest with button to match down front and 2 outside pockets; she had no drawers or stays.¹⁰²

DC Halse noticed a piece of apron was missing.¹⁰³

[DJA]

I am not speculating I am assessing and evaluating the facts and what the evidence points to.

No one saw her wearing any apron or apron piece whilst the body was in Mitre square so please do not mislead

Just because she was perhaps seen wearing an apron earlier in the day that doesnt mean to say she was wearing an apron when she was murdered

And Leanne would be far better listening to me than you, and others who continue to present misleading facts

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

PC Hutt noted that Eddowes was wearing her apron at 1.00 am when released.

[DJA]

this pic I would suggest is not accurate if you review the description of the clothing and the cuts to the clothing

This pic shows what appears to be the clothing cut and parted to reveal the abdomen. He abdomen was not ripped open to the extent it is shown in the pic

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The providence of that "pic" is impeccable.

[Wickerman]

Quite sure Leanne found that list here on Casebook.

And that's the result when you rely on someone else's research, or lack thereof.

[Wickerman]

(1) On the contrary, there is a report to that effect. (2) I have no intention to mislead. (3) It doesn't matter anyway, because...

...regardless what we call the garment, regardless of whether it was around her neck or up her arse, the fact remains that a missing piece of garment was found in Goulston Street and was definitively matched with the remainder of the garment at the mortuary. That's the salient point here. Bickering about such things as "It was/wasn't around her neck" or "It was/wasn't an apron" is totally irrelevant.

Yep!, that's the bottom line.

[DJA]

Where on earth are you getting these doctored up lists?
There's an original out there Leanne, use it!
You don't seem to have Evans & Skinner's The Ultimate, they don't provide the original handwritten lists, it is typed, but at least it's accurate.

Quite sure Leanne found that list here on Casebook.

[Wickerman]

and as such would have been difficult for the killer to cut or tear a piece. There was many other items of her clothing more easily accessible then any apron hidden under the rest of her clothes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Jesus H Chri......
It was HIM who threw her clothing upside down, when she was originally laid down her clothing was in order, her coat no doubt open, exposing the apron. He lifted it up and sliced off a large piece, then set about pulling up her clothing out of the way.
It only stands to reason to me that he cut a section off before he mutilated her, which might suggest he thought ahead, he wanted something to drop the organs in as he cut them out. Then folded up the rag, with organs inside, and took off...