Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

I am suggesting that Kelly never sung the song.

That is my suggestion too; an obvious confusion of two similar songs.

[David Orsam]

Well, if you pluck flowers from a grave

Where is the grave coming from Jeff?

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

Well, if you pluck flowers from a grave, presumably you are aware that the decomposing body beneath the grave has added it's natural elements to the ground and this living flower you plucked includes some portions of the elements. Therefore it includes portions of the deceased, and as you are plucking the flower for yourself it (symbolically) brings you closer to the deceased (i.e., the dead are never thoroughly dead due to the cycle of life concept). By keeping the flower (possibly putting in a book at home or something) you are keeping part of deceased near you.

Giving flowers is a way of reminding the deceased (at least in the mind of the mourner) that you have not forgotten them. The flowers are placed on the grave, and as they slowly disintegrate will blend into the grave's soil and reach the remains of the deceased.

I have not touched on the issue of high or low regard. High regard is shown when we have loved or admired in their lifetime. Usually it is somebody in one's family, or someone that one has had a heavy, positive, emotional or sexual relationship with. Therefore low regard has to do with someone one disliked or even hated. In that case everything I suggested before would be twisted - plucking the flower off the grave would be to have a souvenir that the person is dead (and well rid of 'em). But actually there would be less likelihood of something like that happening. What cold happen would be more disgusting.

If you saw the movie "The Shootist", John Wayne is a famed gunslinger in 1901, who is dying of cancer as the "Old West" is dying as well. He has stopped off in the town where he was born to die there, and the marshall is Harry Morgan. Morgan (not initially knowing Wayne is dying) is reading him a "riot act" about no gunfighting, but when he learns about Wayne's condition he starts being cheerful about the whole matter - the problem of Wayne's presence will soon be solved by peaceful means. Before he leaves Morgan makes the comment to the effect that if the buried Wayne feels wet suddenly, it's not normal rain doing it (meaning Morgan will probably be urinating on the man's grave).

Oddly enough there is some story that was mentioned in one of the books on the Ripper (Cullen's) that was told by some elderly woman in the 1950s that as a kid she saw an unsettling site after Mary Kelly's remains were laid to rest. The woman with another friend noted an odd looking male at the funeral site who stayed when the other's left, and the man spat into the grave. Good anecdote, but how true was it?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for good descriptions of high and low regard.

Well, Sweet Violets did not contain a reference to a grave. That was the other song. As we can see, the contents of the two songs are very different.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Pierre]

That is my suggestion too; an obvious confusion of two similar songs.

The newspapers are earlier on the subject than the inquest. Therefore Cox had an opportunity to hear the statement that Kelly was singing about violets on the 9th. Cox could have thought she was telling the truth during the inquest. But the song she described could have been the wrong one.

How old was Cox by the way, do you know that?

Regards, Pierre

[DJA]

The newspapers are earlier on the subject than the inquest. Therefore Cox had an opportunity to hear the statement that Kelly was singing about violets on the 9th. Cox could have thought she was telling the truth during the inquest. But the song she described could have been the wrong one.

How old was Cox by the way, do you know that?

Regards, Pierre

Approximately 31 years of age.

[Pierre]

Approximately 31 years of age.

OK. Older than Kelly. Thanks.

[David Orsam]

The newspapers are earlier on the subject than the inquest. Therefore Cox had an opportunity to hear the statement that Kelly was singing about violets on the 9th. Cox could have thought she was telling the truth during the inquest. But the song she described could have been the wrong one.

This strikes me as very strange thinking on your part Pierre. Cox is the only person known to have heard Kelly singing. Do you really think she took her information about the song title from the newspapers? If that is the case she didn't repeat very well what she had read because she recalled Kelly singing "a violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy". As you have correctly mentioned to Jeff, no grave is mentioned in the song "Sweet Violets".

Further, what you are saying about Cox describing "the wrong" song does not seem to sit well with what you said earlier when you suggested that "Kelly never sung the song".

I thought you were saying that she never sung the song "Sweet Violets" because we know on the evidence that she sang the song "A Violet from Mother's Grave". But now I have no idea what you are saying so perhaps it's time for you to clarify.

And what difference does Cox's age make to anything?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;390036]

This strikes me as very strange thinking on your part Pierre.

An irrelevant comment. Stick to the issue.

Cox is the only person known to have heard Kelly singing.

No. Cox is the only person known 1. to have stated at the inquest that she heard Kelly singing and there was also 2. "a woman" known to have stated to the press that she heard Kelly singing.

There is no evidence for the two being the same.

Do you really think she took her information about the song title from the newspapers?

No. I do not think anything. But Cox had the opportunity to hear about it from others before the inquest.

If that is the case she didn't repeat very well what she had read because she recalled Kelly singing "a violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy". As you have correctly mentioned to Jeff, no grave is mentioned in the song "Sweet Violets".

There is no historical reason to think that Cox was a savant of popular songs and knew the lyrics of those. But there is an historical reason to think that Cox heard what people said about Kelly after the murder. There is also an historical reason to think she knew some song about violets.

Further, what you are saying about Cox describing "the wrong" song does not seem to sit well with what you said earlier when you suggested that "Kelly never sung the song".

It is you who do not understand. It is very simple. There is no evidence that Kelly sang the song Sweet Violets. But someone did tell the press she did.

I thought you were saying that she never sung the song "Sweet Violets" because we know on the evidence that she sang the song "A Violet from Mother's Grave". But now I have no idea what you are saying so perhaps it's time for you to clarify.

As you see, you did not understand the function of the source. As I said, there is no evidence for Kelly having sung a song about Sweet Violets. It is a statement from "a woman" in the press. That is what we have left.

But Cox was there after the murder.

As you can see, there are several dimension of this problem. It is very interesting.

And what difference does Cox's age make to anything?

Difference? That word is entirely your own.

We could try an hypothesis that the song about the violets on mother´s grave was an older song.

[David Orsam]

An irrelevant comment. Stick to the issue.

No. Cox is the only person known 1. to have stated at the inquest that she heard Kelly singing and there was also 2. "a woman" known to have stated to the press that she heard Kelly singing.

There is no evidence for the two being the same.

No. I do not think anything. But Cox had the opportunity to hear about it from others before the inquest.

There is no historical reason to think that Cox was a savant of popular songs and knew the lyrics of those. But there is an historical reason to think that Cox heard what people said about Kelly after the murder. There is also an historical reason to think she knew some song about violets.

It is you who do not understand. It is very simple. There is no evidence that Kelly sang the song Sweet Violets. But someone did tell the press she did.

As you see, you did not understand the function of the source. As I said, there is no evidence for Kelly having sung a song about Sweet Violets. It is a statement from "a woman" in the press. That is what we have left.

But Cox was there after the murder.

As you can see, there are several dimension of this problem. It is very interesting.

Difference? That word is entirely your own.

We could try an hypothesis that the song about the violets on mother´s grave was an older song.

"A Violet from Mother's Grave" was published in 1881, "Sweet Violets" in 1882 so what difference does that make to anything (if I am allowed to use the word "difference")?

I said that Cox is "the only person known to have heard Kelly singing" and in response you told me I am wrong and that an unknown woman is said by a third party to have heard her singing. Well Pierre that means the woman is unknown so that Cox IS the only woman known to have heard Kelly singing.

You seem to base your assertion that this unknown woman is not Cox because the song said by a newspaper to have been heard by that woman was "Sweet Violets". Aside from the incredible fact that you are now taking what you read in newspapers as gospel, despite your many sneering comments about the accuracy of newspaper reports on this forum, it seems obvious, as I have repeatedly stated, that the newspaper or its informant was confused due to the similarity of the lyrics of the two songs.

Mary Cox said in her written statement to the police, prior to the inquest, that she heard Kelly singing. At the inquest she gave her evidence as to what song she heard Kelly singing. She clearly did NOT get this information from the PMG because she identified a different song to "Sweet Violets".

You say that there is no evidence that the unknown woman is Cox. Equally there is no evidence, other than from the newspapers, that the unknown woman even existed! As I have said, though, it is pretty obvious that it was a reference to Cox but the newspaper or its informant messed up the song title.

There really are not "several dimensions" to this "problem" (which is not a problem) nor is it remotely "interesting".

All we have here is an understandable error in a newspaper.

Finally (having taken this in reverse order) my comment that your post struck me as strange thinking on your part was not "an irrelevant comment" but was directly related to the issue we are discussing. Everything you have said in this thread is extremely strange. You appear to think that there were two - well frankly I have no idea what you think, this is all a kind of madness.

[MysterySinger]

Hi,

No, I am suggesting that Kelly never sung the song. That is all.

Regards, Pierre

Sweet Nothings then.

[MysterySinger]

"A Violet from Mother's Grave" was published in 1881, "Sweet Violets" in 1882 so what difference does that make to anything (if I am allowed to use the word "difference")?

I said that Cox is "the only person known to have heard Kelly singing" and in response you told me I am wrong and that an unknown woman is said by a third party to have heard her singing. Well Pierre that means the woman is unknown so that Cox IS the only woman known to have heard Kelly singing.

You seem to base your assertion that this unknown woman is not Cox because the song said by a newspaper to have been heard by that woman was "Sweet Violets". Aside from the incredible fact that you are now taking what you read in newspapers as gospel, despite your many sneering comments about the accuracy of newspaper reports on this forum, it seems obvious, as I have repeatedly stated, that the newspaper or its informant was confused due to the similarity of the lyrics of the two songs.

Mary Cox said in her written statement to the police, prior to the inquest, that she heard Kelly singing. At the inquest she gave her evidence as to what song she heard Kelly singing. She clearly did NOT get this information from the PMG because she identified a different song to "Sweet Violets".

You say that there is no evidence that the unknown woman is Cox. Equally there is no evidence, other than from the newspapers, that the unknown woman even existed! As I have said, though, it is pretty obvious that it was a reference to Cox but the newspaper or its informant messed up the song title.

There really are not "several dimensions" to this "problem" (which is not a problem) nor is it remotely "interesting".

All we have here is an understandable error in a newspaper.

Finally (having taken this in reverse order) my comment that your post struck me as strange thinking on your part was not "an irrelevant comment" but was directly related to the issue we are discussing. Everything you have said in this thread is extremely strange. You appear to think that there were two - well frankly I have no idea what you think, this is all a kind of madness.

Agree that this does seem like a kind of madness - another strange direction from Pierre.

However, I do think it is interesting. I wonder how they got to hear these songs in the first place. If they rose to popularity via the music halls and theatres, how would poor people have got to hear them? In the case of Kelly, if she had a suitor, she could have been taken to the theatre. If she did have a relative on the stage, they could have sung it for her or at a family gathering maybe. Or maybe it migrated somehow to the pubs and got sung there. There might have been a sing song in a pub she had visited earlier and it was running through her mind.

[GUT]

Agree that this does seem like a kind of madness - another strange direction from Pierre.

However, I do think it is interesting. I wonder how they got to hear these songs in the first place. If they rose to popularity via the music halls and theatres, how would poor people have got to hear them? In the case of Kelly, if she had a suitor, she could have been taken to the theatre. If she did have a relative on the stage, they could have sung it for her or at a family gathering maybe. Or maybe it migrated somehow to the pubs and got sung there. There might have been a sing song in a pub she had visited earlier and it was running through her mind.

Probably the same way anyone heard songs in those days.

Like most things word of mouth.

[Mayerling]

David and Pierre, you are absolutely correct "Sweet Violets" does not mention a grave - actually the singer is possibly giving the flowers to Zillah who is alive. I read the poem more hastily than I should have.

Jeff

[Wickerman]

Approximately 31 years of age.

Congrats, you seem to have got away with that one...

[DJA]

Heh,heh.

Looking for an Englishman to do a title search. My shout.
Could blow the case wide open.

Interested!