Sweet violets

[David Orsam]

Let's see if I've got this right.

An unknown woman is reported in a newspaper to have heard another unknown woman (who was mistaken for Kelly) singing the song "Sweet Violets". Mary Ann Cox, having already told the police that she heard Kelly singing, reads the newspaper report and manages to convince herself that THIS was the song she heard Kelly sing, only she gets a bit confused and she tells the inquest that it was a different song with similar lyrics called "A Violet from Mother's Grave". But, according to Pierre, she did not hear her singing this song nor did she hear her singing "Sweet Violets", it must have been a different song entirely despite what she told the inquest under oath.

So it boils down to the notion that an unknown woman was singing "Sweet Violets" on the night of Kelly's murder while Kelly sang an unidentified song heard by Cox but forgotten by Cox.

Assuming Pierre is right and the much simpler explanation - that it was the newspaper or its informant that got confused about the song title - is wrong, where does that leave us?

I suggest absolutely nowhere. It means Kelly sang a song but we don’t know which one and another woman sang "Sweet Violets" but, as this cannot be connected with the murder, it's just a woman singing a song and thus irrelevant. So we really don't need to consider the lyrics of the song because it's got nothing to do with Jack the Ripper.

So this thread can now die, right?

[Mayerling]

Actually David the thread should not die at all yet. There's still some questions I can think of.

To add to the confusion about the two songs (and I did not realize they were composed a year apart - and only within seven years of the Whitechapel Murders - I just wonder if we are jumping the gun with Mrs. Cox as much as I did previously thinking that both songs were concerning flowers and graves.

Can someone settle this from any of the record of the inquest regarding Mrs. Cox. Could she read?

If she could read (say the newspaper) she might not have muddied the water (if it was her) by suggesting a second song concernng violets. If she couldn't read, and if she was the source of the newspaper report, then her confusion about two songs concerning Violets composed within a year of each other less than a decade before makes a little sense. A non-literate person hearing the victim in a sensational murder may have been singing a currently popular ballad regarding Violets, might confuse the two.

Jeff

[David Orsam]

A non-literate person hearing the victim in a sensational murder may have been singing a currently popular ballad regarding Violets, might confuse the two.

Why would an illiterate person have been more likely than a literate person to have said they heard someone singing "a violet plucked from my mother's grave when a boy" if they did not hear those words being sung?

[Joshua Rogan]

Cox also gave an earlier time for hearing the song; 11:45 PM. In fact she goes as far as to say Kelly started singing as she walked through the door after saying goodnight, so there's a good chance she saw Kelly singing, as well as being told by her that she was going to sing.
If she was just repeating what she'd read in the paper she got the details surprisingly wrong. And perjured herself.

[Pierre]

David and Pierre, you are absolutely correct "Sweet Violets" does not mention a grave - actually the singer is possibly giving the flowers to Zillah who is alive. I read the poem more hastily than I should have.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, the "I" in the text is giving the flowers to "Zillah" who is alive. And the flowers are dead. They have been plucked but still look up to heaven.

If you would interpret the lyrics from that starting point, with a perspective connected to the Whitechapel murders, what would your interpretation be?

Best wishes, Pierre

[Joshua Rogan]

What makes you so sure Zillah is alive? I suspect that an equally valid interpretation is that the flowers are to put on Zillah's grave.

[Pierre]

What makes you so sure Zillah is alive? I suspect that an equally valid interpretation is that the flowers are to put on Zillah's grave.

I have a source that shows that she was alive.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

If you would interpret the lyrics from that starting point, with a perspective connected to the Whitechapel murders, what would your interpretation be?

For this question to be meaningful, don't you first have to establish that the song had any connection with the Whitechapel murders?

At the moment you seem to rely on a newspaper report but have failed to deal with the suggestion that the paper is most likely confused about what song was heard.

Even you accept that Kelly did not sing "Sweet Violets" so where is the connection with the murders?

[miss marple]

I'm sure that if Mrs Cox heard Mary singing Violets from my Mother's grave, thats what she heard, its very precise. The provinance of the song is interesting,Will H Fox an American, stole it from Harry Kennedy who wrote a song called 'A flower from my Angel mother's grave' published in 1878 which made him a lot of money. The song was published in England, it was a sentimental music hall ballard .The Mothers Grave was a popular piece of sentiment in Ireland and there are many poems and and songs about Mothers Graves, the original song may even have been descended from an old irish folk song.
Will H Fox had great sucess on the Music Halls in the 1890s with a comedy piano act called' Paddywhiski' based on Padereski. He Published an advert in The Era in 1899 complaining about people copying his act.
I dont see what MK was singing has to do with her death though.


Miss Marple

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;390084]

For this question to be meaningful, don't you first have to establish that the song had any connection with the Whitechapel murders?

I am in the process of establishing this right now and at the same time in the process of trying to disprove it.

Even you accept that Kelly did not sing "Sweet Violets" so where is the connection with the murders?

The connection is the press if there is a connection.

[David Orsam]

I am in the process of establishing this right now and at the same time in the process of trying to disprove it.

You don't seem to be doing a good job of either.

[David Orsam]

If we look at Cox's evidence, we see that she said she heard Kelly singing "a violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy" at about midnight and then, a quarter of an hour later, Kelly was "still singing" and then having gone out and returned at 1am, Kelly "was singing then".

I doubt Kelly was singing one song that whole time so she must have sung a number of songs. Perhaps "Sweet Violets" was one of them, perhaps not. There's no good evidence for it. The PMG was almost certainly confused due to the similarity of lyric. But, really, what does it matter? Kelly sung a few songs. So what?

[Pierre]

You don't seem to be doing a good job of either.

Why do you think I would care about your rude comments?

They do not lead the case forward. And I do not care about anything else but the case.

[Joshua Rogan]

Well, as it seems that the press seem to have been better informed about the song than the witnesses, I suspect the murderer was a reporter for the PMG.

[Pierre]

If we look at Cox's evidence, we see that she said she heard Kelly singing "a violet I plucked from my mother's grave when a boy" at about midnight and then, a quarter of an hour later, Kelly was "still singing" and then having gone out and returned at 1am, Kelly "was singing then".

I doubt Kelly was singing one song that whole time so she must have sung a number of songs. Perhaps "Sweet Violets" was one of them, perhaps not. There's no good evidence for it. The PMG was almost certainly confused due to the similarity of lyric. But, really, what does it matter? Kelly sung a few songs. So what?

So what, yes. And so you do not need to comment on it, since you do not care about it.

You do not contribute to the case, David.