Sweet violets

[Graham]

Maybe yes, maybe no, but I guarantee it'll have a dozen pages yet. Pierre has developed quite a following on here for a guy who apparently doesn't know what he's talking about.

You can drop the 'apparently'.............

Graham

[Harry D]

You can drop the 'apparently'.............

Graham

You wouldn't think it from the way people hang on his every word.

[David Orsam]

You wouldn't think it from the way people hang on his every word.

No-one is hanging onto his every word. Some, however, are attempting to demonstrate where he is going wrong.

[Mayerling]

[QUOTE=Pierre;389960]

Hi Jeff,

On a nomothetical level of history, popular songs might have functions for larger groups of people, for society and so on, as myths connected to disasters and bad events.

Such a nomothetic position is not relevant, I think, in this case, since the murders are done by an individual with his own motive. Therefore, an idiographic history should be relevant and we should establish facts on sources from the perspective of the motive and thinking of one individual an not from a perspective of large groups in society.

Anyway, I appreciate your descriptions of that function of myths and think they are relevant for other historical events. As we know, such historical functions are relevant when we study culture in political contexts and so on.

Jeff, there is a much more simple and direct question connected to the song. Perhaps you would like to suggest some answer. The simple question is: Why do people give other people flowers?

Kind regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

An interesting simple question. People give other people flowers if romancing them, or honoring them on some occasion, or (as the song suggests) putting them on their grave. Which answer do you feel is most appropriate if we insist on linking these tunes with Kelly's demise?

Jeff

[David Orsam]

or (as the song suggests) putting them on their grave.

Which song Jeff?

You refer to "tunes" but, as I understand him, Pierre is only interested in discussing "Sweet Violets". He hasn't mentioned any other tune.

[MysterySinger]

None of the witnesses, as far as I can recall, reported seeing Kelly or a man with her carrying flowers. Is Pierre, though, leading to an assumption that Kelly was given flowers or maybe promised some. Is he suggesting a romantic proposal of some kind, that once rebuffed led to a fit of anger and murder? There I go again, making stories up. Trying to make pieces fit - I'm sure they will one day but we just haven't found the key.

[Mayerling]

Which song Jeff?

You refer to "tunes" but, as I understand him, Pierre is only interested in discussing "Sweet Violets". He hasn't mentioned any other tune.

Hi David,

Both songs deal with flowers and graves. Under the circumstances (although "I plucked a flower from my mother's grave" deals with taking a flower OFF a grave) the idea is flowers and giving them to someone - probably connected with funerals. But as I said, flowers are also given as a token of love or regard. Personally (as you can see from my earlier remarks) I can't really see how this so-called clue is worth anything. What does it tell us about what the song really was, who sang it (Mary or whoever), why was it sung, etc.

This reminds me of something I once wrote about in an article about what we sometimes miss in reading about old homicide cases. I mentioned the murder of "Old Shakespeare" in 1891 in New York City - a case that has been grafted into the Ripper story because of Inspector Thomas Byrnes involvement after saying that the Ripper would not be so lucky operating in New York as in London. The murder of a prostitute named "Old Shakespeare" was ascribed to an Algerian in NYC, captured by Byrnes fairly quickly. It was assumed that the prostitute was called "Old Shakespeare" because she recited from Shakespeare to her clients. However, while she might have quoted from the dramatist/poet, "Old Shakespeare" was not her only alias. She also was called "Jeff Davis". It turns out that in the Gilded Age (post -American Civil War period) there was a tavern in N.Y.C. frequented by soldiers from the Federal Army or from the N.Y. State militias, called "The Old Shakespeare Tavern". My suspicion is that "Old Shakespeare" got her nickname from her using the tavern to pick up her "Johns".

Maybe we should find a suspect called "Violets" or "Plucked" from those two tunes.

Jeff

[Harry D]

No-one is hanging onto his every word. Some, however, are attempting to demonstrate where he is going wrong.

Nah, there's a small group of members who are obsessed with the guy. If you think he's full of it, why even dignify topics like this with a response?

[DJA]

+1

Pierrebook!

He'll love that. Can't win

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Mayerling;389985]

Hi Pierre,

An interesting simple question. People give other people flowers if romancing them, or honoring them on some occasion, or (as the song suggests) putting them on their grave. Which answer do you feel is most appropriate if we insist on linking these tunes with Kelly's demise?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

In the case of the particular song Sweet Violets, the only relevant element in the song, as I see it and from the ones you suggest, is the element of honoring them on some occasion.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

None of the witnesses, as far as I can recall, reported seeing Kelly or a man with her carrying flowers. Is Pierre, though, leading to an assumption that Kelly was given flowers or maybe promised some. Is he suggesting a romantic proposal of some kind, that once rebuffed led to a fit of anger and murder? There I go again, making stories up. Trying to make pieces fit - I'm sure they will one day but we just haven't found the key.

Hi,

No, I am suggesting that Kelly never sung the song. That is all.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi David,

Both songs deal with flowers and graves. Under the circumstances (although "I plucked a flower from my mother's grave" deals with taking a flower OFF a grave) the idea is flowers and giving them to someone - probably connected with funerals. But as I said, flowers are also given as a token of love or regard. Personally (as you can see from my earlier remarks) I can't really see how this so-called clue is worth anything. What does it tell us about what the song really was, who sang it (Mary or whoever), why was it sung, etc.

This reminds me of something I once wrote about in an article about what we sometimes miss in reading about old homicide cases. I mentioned the murder of "Old Shakespeare" in 1891 in New York City - a case that has been grafted into the Ripper story because of Inspector Thomas Byrnes involvement after saying that the Ripper would not be so lucky operating in New York as in London. The murder of a prostitute named "Old Shakespeare" was ascribed to an Algerian in NYC, captured by Byrnes fairly quickly. It was assumed that the prostitute was called "Old Shakespeare" because she recited from Shakespeare to her clients. However, while she might have quoted from the dramatist/poet, "Old Shakespeare" was not her only alias. She also was called "Jeff Davis". It turns out that in the Gilded Age (post -American Civil War period) there was a tavern in N.Y.C. frequented by soldiers from the Federal Army or from the N.Y. State militias, called "The Old Shakespeare Tavern". My suspicion is that "Old Shakespeare" got her nickname from her using the tavern to pick up her "Johns".

Maybe we should find a suspect called "Violets" or "Plucked" from those two tunes.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

As you say, flowers are also given as a token of regard. Now, regard can be high or low.

But when flowers are plucked, i.e. when the flowers are cut off, and they look up to heaven after that event, what sort of flowers are they?

And what sort of a token of regard would it be, giving such flowers or such a flower?

Also, what could the definitions of "low regard" be? (I donīt know, that is why I am asking).

Regards, Pierre

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

As you say, flowers are also given as a token of regard. Now, regard can be high or low.

But when flowers are plucked, i.e. when the flowers are cut off, and they look up to heaven after that event, what sort of flowers are they?

And what sort of a token of regard would it be, giving such flowers or such a flower?

Also, what could the definitions of "low regard" be? (I donīt know, that is why I am asking).

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

Well, if you pluck flowers from a grave, presumably you are aware that the decomposing body beneath the grave has added it's natural elements to the ground and this living flower you plucked includes some portions of the elements. Therefore it includes portions of the deceased, and as you are plucking the flower for yourself it (symbolically) brings you closer to the deceased (i.e., the dead are never thoroughly dead due to the cycle of life concept). By keeping the flower (possibly putting in a book at home or something) you are keeping part of deceased near you.

Giving flowers is a way of reminding the deceased (at least in the mind of the mourner) that you have not forgotten them. The flowers are placed on the grave, and as they slowly disintegrate will blend into the grave's soil and reach the remains of the deceased.

I have not touched on the issue of high or low regard. High regard is shown when we have loved or admired in their lifetime. Usually it is somebody in one's family, or someone that one has had a heavy, positive, emotional or sexual relationship with. Therefore low regard has to do with someone one disliked or even hated. In that case everything I suggested before would be twisted - plucking the flower off the grave would be to have a souvenir that the person is dead (and well rid of 'em). But actually there would be less likelihood of something like that happening. What cold happen would be more disgusting.

If you saw the movie "The Shootist", John Wayne is a famed gunslinger in 1901, who is dying of cancer as the "Old West" is dying as well. He has stopped off in the town where he was born to die there, and the marshall is Harry Morgan. Morgan (not initially knowing Wayne is dying) is reading him a "riot act" about no gunfighting, but when he learns about Wayne's condition he starts being cheerful about the whole matter - the problem of Wayne's presence will soon be solved by peaceful means. Before he leaves Morgan makes the comment to the effect that if the buried Wayne feels wet suddenly, it's not normal rain doing it (meaning Morgan will probably be urinating on the man's grave).

Oddly enough there is some story that was mentioned in one of the books on the Ripper (Cullen's) that was told by some elderly woman in the 1950s that as a kid she saw an unsettling site after Mary Kelly's remains were laid to rest. The woman with another friend noted an odd looking male at the funeral site who stayed when the other's left, and the man spat into the grave. Good anecdote, but how true was it?

Jeff

[David Orsam]

Both songs deal with flowers and graves.

Where are you seeing a reference to graves in the lyrics of 'Sweet Violets'?

[David Orsam]

If you think he's full of it, why even dignify topics like this with a response?

For the same reason I am responding to your post. Because it's the purpose of an internet discussion board.

It's one thing to say that Pierre is wrong (or 'apparently' wrong as you fudged it) but another thing to demonstrate it, not least to demonstrate it to Pierre himself in order to convince him that he is wrong.

I might add that if you continue making off-topic, unnecessary and inaccurate posts about the members of this forum then your prophecy of this turning into a dozen page thread may be self-fulfilling.