Ethical question - Misogyny on these boards

[Natalie Severn]

Ally,
I know its late but we"ve just been to the Holland Park Opera to see Verdi"s Il Trovatore.It was magnificent.
Regarding the word "retard".If ,as a teacher,you used it in a state school,you could get the sack----if reported-no kidding.Ditto wog and paki and in my view these are definitely offensive words.The word whore is naff ,old fashioned , a bit crude and is usually combined with another adjective like dirty,these days-words change their meanings as they pass through centuries so what was maybe ok 100 years ago isnt today.Whore has become an ugly term.But I cant see whats wrong with sex worker to describe work in the sex trade--if thats what you do for a living.It has no hidden connotation or anything,which is what I object to about whore.
Cheers

[Septic Blue]

Whore has become an ugly term.But I cant see whats wrong with sex worker to describe work in the sex trade--if thats what you do for a living.It has no hidden connotation or anything, ...

Hi Norma,

From my perspective; the term "sex worker" is suggestive of a chosen profession, with which the person to whom it refers is quite content.

I perceive the term as being applicable to porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, et al ..., who approach there work as professionals: Inclined to do their jobs to the best of their abilities, so as to gain the greatest possible return, for their efforts.

Ironically, this invention of the politically correct mindset should be seen as a degrading and insulting reference - in my opinion - to those who must reluctantly resort to prostitution at the height of desperation. It implies resignation that they have found their callings in life, and trivializes their plights.


Colin

[Sox]

Tough subject, in many of the books on Jack the Ripper you will see the victims described as whores, or worse. The point is this: When Billy Bloggs the Sheet Metal worker is killed you do not see headlines like, SHEET METAL WORKER BUTCHERED.

The trials of Peter Sutcliffe and Denis Nilson highlighted this specific problem, in court the victims were often reffered to as 'prostitutes' or 'gay men', and at Sutcliffe's trial in particular, it led to several warnings from the judge. There is, in a sense, a certain degree of de-humanizastion going on in all of this, simply because of the stigma that society attatches to being a prostitute or a homosexual.

They were not whores, or puffs, or sluts etc, they were people.Human beings who's lives were destroyed on the whims of vicious killers.

[Sasha]

Now that is skimming Godwin's Law.



The whole thread made me actually wonder if I did use whore or prostitute on the threads. I hope it was the latter.

It wasn't you!

LOL
Sasha

[belinda]

Why should misogyny be treated any differently than any other form of offense? As a woman, I don't need any special treatment. If a post is offensive, regardless of the reason why, hit the Report Post button and report it to the Admin.

What she said

[Sasha]

Context is important, and, as Ally pointed out, intent is important.

Hard to judge intent in the written word though. However, I agree about context and, in particular, the character of the person writing. Ally is right that "all this PC nonsense" is a waste of time if we don't change the underlying culture of fear and hate against those who are different to ourselves. However, I still don't see this as an open license to engage in name-calling. That's just an opinion though. Back to context: if I call my friends "whores", they consider it a term of endearment but if I say it's okay that JTR killed the women he did because "they were just whores", many people would say the latter statement is derogatory or offensive. For me, the bottomline is this, to many people on this site, the victims of these JTR crimes do matter. This seems to run contrary to the word "misogynist" - which of course raises the most interesting thing about this post. If you call someone a misogynist and they aren't, that is name-calling and derogatory and that's not okay!

[caz]

Jack - the biggest bigot in the world?

Hi Sasha,

I realise you were using an extreme example to make your point: it's okay that JTR killed the women he did because "they were just whores". But happily, in the ten years (almost) that I have been reading these message boards I don't think I've seen anyone expressing anything like this view, even in unwarranted jest. The nearest would be the recent eye-popping statement that females who choose to enter the armed services deserve no sympathy if they get raped. And the originator of this highly offensive opinion was a woman!

Hi Sox,

I would imagine that a budding serial killer is more likely to be found among the members of society who want the stigma to remain firmly attached to certain minority groups, including the one he finally selects to prey on. Sutcliffe, for example, managed to convince himself that virtually any female who went out unaccompanied deserved no sympathy if she got a hammer over the head. They were all "whores" to him. This was no doubt how he justified his behaviour to himself, but he was seriously deluded if he thought it would work on the world at large.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,

I realise you were using an extreme example to make your point: it's okay that JTR killed the women he did because "they were just whores". But happily, in the ten years (almost) that I have been reading these message boards I don't think I've seen anyone expressing anything like this view, even in unwarranted jest.
Love,

Caz
X

Thanks Caz, you are correct. One of the attractions of this board - for me - is that people genuinely seem to care that these women were killed at all (ie I don't think that it's the morbid side of the killings that attracts most punters). And, even if the killer is now dead, there is no statute of limitations on murder. These women mattered. They still matter!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

From my perspective; the term "sex worker" is suggestive of a chosen profession, with which the person to whom it refers is quite content.

I perceive the term as being applicable to porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, et al ..., who approach there work as professionals: Inclined to do their jobs to the best of their abilities, so as to gain the greatest possible return, for their efforts.

Ironically, this invention of the politically correct mindset should be seen as a degrading and insulting reference - in my opinion - to those who must reluctantly resort to prostitution at the height of desperation. It implies resignation that they have found their callings in life, and trivializes their plights.


Colin [ATTACH]2221[/ATTACH]

Colin,thats right and I agree with your reasoning here-sex worker suggests a "chosen" field of work.In our newspapers young women who have been caught up in the traffic in prostitution and forced into it are referred to as sex slaves.The word whore is not used in any National, Provincial or Local newspapers that I am aware of in the UK, to describe prostitution of any kind.

[jason_c]

As well as suggesting a field of work the term sex worker is a bit non specific in my opinion. Sex workers can range from street prostitutes, lapdancers, "high class" callgirls to photographic modelling etc. I realise there is also a crossover between these groups.

The lifestyle and dangers of working as a street prostitute would be in a different league entirely to a stripper.

[Sasha]

As well as suggesting a field of work the term sex worker is a bit non specific in my opinion. Sex workers can range from street prostitutes, lapdancers, "high class" callgirls to photographic modelling etc. I realise there is also a crossover between these groups.

The lifestyle and dangers of working as a street prostitute would be in a different league entirely to a stripper.

Yeah, maybe Jason. My guess is that there are some pretty unsavoury characters a "girl" would have to deal with in both "businesses". And anyway, strippers can sometimes be persuaded to move into prostitution as well - as you rightly point out!

[Ally]

They were not whores, or puffs, or sluts etc, they were people.Human beings who's lives were destroyed on the whims of vicious killers.

Actually you are wrong. They were whores. They were also people. One is not exclusive of the other. I see what Caz means by the sudden beatification of the victims, which frankly, I find more insulting to them as human beings than calling a spade a spade. These were not saints. They were whores, they were thieves, they were raging drunks, they were bitches who strung men along for the cash, they were women whose own children wanted nothing to do with them or women who had to be paid to attend to their sick children and badgered them for cash afterwards. These are women, who have counterparts today that not a single one of you would want your sons to marry, or to be sleeping in your downstairs room. They were women. They were people. They were seriously flawed people. These were not women kidnapped by sex slavers and forced to prostitute themselves to earn a coin. These were women who had better shots and better chances in life and pissed them away. They were victims yes, of Jack the Ripper but they were also victims of their own bad choices.

Saying they were whores is not saying they were not human. Saying they were whores is in no way saying they "deserved" to be killed by Jack the Ripper. But when you start the canonization process for these women based on circumstances and relieve them of any responsibility for their lives, you dishonor them. You reduce them to the level of (dare I say) retarded children of whom nothing can or should be expected. They made their choices and they lived their lives as they saw fit. Whitewashing those lives is DISRESPECTFUL to the women who lived them. They shouldn't have to be seen as being better than they were.

[Sasha]

Actually you are wrong. They were whores. These were women who had better shots and better chances in life and pissed them away.

I wonder what these choices were but, hey, I'm new here. And anyway, as Ally says, regardless of who they were and how they earned their living, they did not deserve to die - not like this. As for building the women a shrine, I don't believe anyone is proposing that. What anyone wants is for them to rest in peace. Finding their killer and holding him to account might go someway in achieving this.

[caz]

'Whitewashing those lives is DISRESPECTFUL to the women who lived them.'

Thank you, Ally. I appreciate that you understood exactly what I was getting at. It makes me wonder when I see (usually male) posters arguing that Liz was waiting for a hot date, for example, or that Mary had all she needed from turning her room into the worst improvised laundry in the world and making up the shortfall by sponging off her male acquaintances - anything but engaging in a bit of 'light whoring' to earn themselves the basics and paying the ultimate price for it. Seeking to take the murder victims away from all that sordid 'whoring stuff' also suggests being in denial about all the men who created the market for it in the first place.

Love,

Caz
X

[revpetero]

I wonder what these choices were but, hey, I'm new here. And anyway, as Ally says, regardless of who they were and how they earned their living, they did not deserve to die - not like this. As for building the women a shrine, I don't believe anyone is proposing that. What anyone wants is for them to rest in peace. Finding their killer and holding him to account might go someway in achieving this.

I don't think he will ever be held to account. I feel he may be dead by now.


Peter