Ethical question - Misogyny on these boards

[Natalie Severn]

PC isnt all bollocks though,Ally.It is "supposed" to be about old fashioned "courtesy",a way of avoiding hurting other people in order to feel superior to them isnt it?

[needler]

THIS one got me!

Hiya Ally....hope you're keeping well and I've another wand for you. This one REALLY works!

I just found your misogyny thread....you can tell how long it's been since I wandered around here......and I'm amazed that there are three pages of this foolishness. I can't believe this tempest in a teacup. Ally, Natalie and Sasha seem to be managing quite well, so why are some others all atwitter about this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK "prostitute" is a legal definition; of so, and if it is derogatory, the perhaps we should RE-define other legal terms........"murder"......nah! "Rape"......what the hell else can you call it?

To all who are concerned about "name calling", etc, PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT IF YOU TREAT SOMEONE ON THESE BOARDS WITH DISRESPECT OR MAKE MISOGYNISTIC REMARKS, THE JUSTICE WILL BE SWIFT, and it WON'T come from the PC police. You'll get it in the neck from we who can recognise the difference between a rude, denigrating remark and a comment with no harm intended. Ally and I will be leading the pack, and many others will be with us.....men and women.

Get over it, and go worry about global warming and how you're going to pay your bills next month.

Cheers to all, and especially to you, Ally; I've been a TERRIBLE correspondent lately, but will post wand forthwith!

Judy

[Septic Blue]

I think they've scheduled the book burning for the morning of day 3, right after calisthenics.

"calisthenics"

Will Dan be in charge of the morning exercise regimen ???




Colin

[revpetero]

PC isnt all bollocks though,Ally.It is "supposed" to be about old fashioned "courtesy",a way of avoiding hurting other people in order to feel superior to them isnt it?

Ideally but does it ever work. They will produce a long list of what you can't say anymore (which gives it more acceptability in the minds of idiots). To this they then create a new list of words that are politically correct and these then take on the same derogatory meanings when used out of context by morons.

If less attention was paid to the subject and people just ignored or turned cheeks to people who only have one form of argument then they would go away (Well hopefully).

Peter

[Ally]

Nats,

No linguistic PC is pretty much all bollocks. You don't change people's attitudes, mindsets or beliefs by attempting to tell them what words are appropriate and which are not. If the only thing that changes is what words are acceptable, then nothing changes beyond the surface. As I have said before, people who bristle at the idea of a stupid person being called retarded think absolutely nothing of calling the umpire blind when he misses a play. They ascribe an aspersion to an entire category of people in the former statement for purely subjective reasons that they fail to assign in the latter category. Why? Blindness and retardation are both disabling categories, but people have no problem using the former in daily conversation to describe inability to see and see nothing pejorative about it. This doesn't translate to them disliking or having a hatred or disrespect to actual blind people. But people think if you say retarded, this translates to negative comments about retarded people. Why?

The same can be said of the prostitute/whore argument. Prostitutes and whores are the same thing. They are people who sell themselves for money. But because the word "whore" has over time started to be used outside its specific context and has taken on pejorative casts and used to insult people who are not literally whores, now it's "bad" to use it to describe people who actually are that. If you call a real whore a whore, it's bad because some people call not-real-whores whores. It's "better" to use prostitute. Except now of course, people are starting to use prostitute pejoratively (i.e. prossie or whatever it was) and it will only be a matter of time before you've got to call them something else.

I use words that correctly describe the condition or state or occupation of the person to which they are intended. I am not going to worry about politically correct BS and find some convoluted way of saying what I want to say because it might have a negative connotation for some group of people. Sorry, that's BS.

If I said "All retarded people are wastes of oxygen and should be killed in utero" that would be me insulting retarded people and something that could rightly be seen as offensive to retarded people. If I say someone's retarded, I am saying what they are: mentally slow. Whoops, I mean challenged.

[Ally]

Heya Judy,

I'll look forward to it, we were actually just discussing my tiara collection on the podcast yesterday and how the whole crown thing got started at the conferences.

Glad to see you are around and kicking still.

[caz]

Hi Ally, Nats, Judy, All,

I have not come across the offending posts yet (and the link didn't work for some reason) but surely context is everything. It should be obvious whether the w word is used in preference to the p word in order to try and cause offence on a 2008 message board, or for effect in a book written in the days when authors/publishers thought that kind of thing worked and was acceptable.

I have used the w word myself, when imagining the ripper's thoughts, for instance, and I would be rather miffed if the PC police tore me off a strip for doing so and accused me of causing offence to women. No woman would need to feel offended by my use of the w word in this context (and certainly not if she doesn't see herself as a w in any case ).

Actually, I find the current trend of arguing against the victims being vulnerable to their killer because they were offering what men have been prepared to pay for since the dawn of time quite insulting to their memories. It's as if there is so much dirt attached to being identified as an 'unfortunate' in 1888 Whitechapel that the victims have to be artificially elevated above the real thing to what is considered to be an acceptably 'wholesome' level. They'll be going out to give thrice weekly bible readings next, to men whose wives refuse to open the good book at home more than once a month. At least the Victorians knew that a spade was a spade, and that a 'laundress' wasn't always a laundress, even if they loved their euphemisms too much to do without them.

I'm not sure we are progressing much unless we recognise that serial killers prey on the weaknesses inherent in certain groups, whether it be elderly patients (Shipman); hitchhikers, lodgers and close relatives (the Wests); or women struggling with addictions and/or debts who take cash from strange men in return for sexual favours (Wright).

Love,

Caz
X

[Celesta]

Context is important, and, as Ally pointed out, intent is important.

[Pinkerton]

No linguistic PC is pretty much all bollocks. You don't change people's attitudes, mindsets or beliefs by attempting to tell them what words are appropriate and which are not.

It isn't the WORD it's how it is used. When its used to stifle debate, or when you criticize someone for using a term that clearly wasn't meant as an insult then its clearly gone too far. However as Natalie said, as a basic term of respect and politeness it definitely has it's use.

And its funny how people who claim to be 100% against so called "political correctness" would agree that using a racial epithet like "n*gger" would clearly be offensive and out of bounds. Yet they have no problems using the term "bitch" or "whore". Its a bit hypocritical don't you think?

Not to mention that the right-wing now uses the term "political correctness" for ANYTHING they don't like--including IDEAS. If I were to say that the "native population of the United States got royally screwed" I'm sure some right-winger would call that "political correctness".

[Ally]

Hi Pinkerton,

I think the difference is in definition. Whore has a literal definition based on an occupation and a behavior a person is capable of changing. Retard has a literal defintion based on a condition ..being stupid ..that is in a person's ability to change (not talking about retarded people here but retard used as a pejorative).

I have no problem insulting someone based on any item that is based on things that are within their control. Religion, character, bitchiness, all of these things are choices.

I personally would not use n*gger to insult someone because, really, what would I be saying, " You're black!" Ooh snap. I don't think being black is an insult. So I wouldn't use any words that mean black as insult.

Of course, I wouldn't call a retarded person a retard as an insult either because what would be the point? That would be like calling me a bitch. It's more of an exercise in futility as an insult than a problem with political correctness.

[Cap'n Jack]

If you look through the media reports, and court cases from 1888, the terms 'whore' and 'prostitute' are generally used in their true context, meaning a woman who employs her sex in a commercial manner for gain.
Of course one often finds the terms used out of context, as insults against women who are not in the trade, but one hopes not here, for we do discuss the murder of a number of working prostitutes in 1888, and they were without a shadow of doubt 'whores' in 1888.
I can see no reasonable justification for not using such terms, in their historical context.
It was not so long ago that one of the posters here criticised my self for using such terms, and asked me to refer to the victims as 'sex workers'.
I thought that term abominable.
I thought of ants.

As many know I am of mixed race, and am often referred to as a 'wog', or 'Paki', but I take no offence at that, as I am quite rightly proud to be a 'wog' or a 'Paki'.
I find a person often defines their essential being by being exactly what the insult is intended to mean.
Then it is no longer an insult, but an affirmation of self.

[Robert]

I don't much like "sex worker." It makes me wonder what would happen if they went on strike - would male sex workers down tools?

[nickie]

I have to agree with Ally

Hi All,
IMHO I would have to agree with Ally about the whole PC thing being bull. Whatever happened to freedom of speech (here in the States anyway)??? Yes I understand the ramifications of that entitlement that you will either offend or hurt someone, but HELLO...these are only words, not poison darts. It's like when I was a kid and mom used the old adage "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" if someone hurt my sister's feelings by calling her an ignorant name..she had a speech impediment and was teased all the time and called just about everything from a retard to a moron at 4years old...
just my opinion...yes a child doesn't deserve this, but adults need to grow a hard skin to this crap.
Regards,

[Cap'n Jack]

Robert, glad to see the tea is still working.
But surely the gay sex workers would remain unaffected by such a strike?
As their tools were already down?

[Robert]

Hi AP

I wouldn't know about that, I'm afraid. But I'm sure the female sex workers would appreciate a go-slow.