Ethical question - Misogyny on these boards

[Natalie Severn]

Well as a drunk I can tell you that alcohol is a problem when you drink it, but when you don't drink it, it's fine.
I function very well without a drink, give me a couple and I'm a genius, give me a couple more and I'm a lush and bore, give me another and I'll knock you over the bar.
I don't imagine the victims being any different to me.

Except they were poor,they were women and they lived in 1888!

[Celesta]

PC isnt all bollocks though,Ally.It is "supposed" to be about old fashioned "courtesy",a way of avoiding hurting other people in order to feel superior to them isnt it?

There's nothing wrong with good old-fashioned respect in my opinion, either, Nats.

Some of the political correctness may get over the top sometimes. I think it depends on who's involved and what the circumstances are.
Best wishes.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Celesta!

Your comment reminds me of the following problem;

A slang-word for a "gypsy" is "mustalainen" ("musta" means black in Finnish, "-lainen" is like! ) in Finland.

The following thing puzzles me;

These days the correct word for a gypsy here is "Romani".

But when a Romani calls him/herself "mustalainen", is it racism?!

All the best
Jukka

[caz]

Alcoholism is not an illness unless you can't control your arm that's raising the drink to your lips. If that's the case, then you belong in an insane asylum. The same applies to obesity. There were none in Buchenwald who had "a low rate of metabolism" or "a glandular problem". Those "excuses" are, in reality, lies.

Yep, I have got to agree with you there, Stan. And I know I'll get shot for this, but I suspect it's the same kind of phenomenon with serial offending. All human beings have their own weaknesses and most of us spend our lives having to control any which would adversely affect ourselves and those around us if taken to excess. Every adult of sound mind is responsible for their own behaviour: alcoholics, drug users, freaky eaters, gamblers, shopaholics, you name it - they all play silly buggers with their own health and security if they don't discipline themselves and curb their weaknesses. But they can also play absolute havoc and merry hell with the lives of the very people they claim to care about most. People are able to indulge their individual self-destructive, selfish, antisocial - even criminal - weaknesses here in Western society like never before. The off-switches are gathering dust.

Going back to calling a whore a whore in 1888 (which doesn’t defame, insult or libel anyone in my view), at least we may assume that Liz and Mary were giving reasonable value for money to their male customers, if they survived only to be picked off by a man whose weakness was attacking complete strangers for the sheer hell of it. Some people on these boards seem hell bent on turning the victims one by one into women who knew their killer and had given him a nice old respectable "she done him wrong" motive. Bloody charming.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Caz,
I wouldnt disagree significantly with your thoughts on the various "isms" that it seems fashionable to have these days and the most effective ways of dealing with them being by the people themselves.
What I was saying earlier though was that certain individuals are more susceptible than others to addictions and some individuals have without doubt,a genetic predisposition to alcohol.This it seems to me was the case with Annie Chapman whose struggle with alcohol was well documented in a letter written by her brother.But my main point was that you can not lump together all the victims of Jack the Ripper .
You are quite right that it would seem Liz Stride and Mary Kelly chose prostitution as way of life.But it wasnt really like that with several of the other victims,as I understand it .
But I really dont want to get into the game of being judge and jury over the destitute victims of Jack the Ripper,for goodness sake---so I"ll not be returning to this thread again.These are fairly complex social and behavioural issues at root that dont seem to play well being discussed here---not in my view anyway.
Cheers

[Natalie Severn]

There's nothing wrong with good old-fashioned respect in my opinion, either, Nats.

Some of the political correctness may get over the top sometimes. I think it depends on who's involved and what the circumstances are.
Best wishes.

Thanks Celesta,Best wishes
Norma

[Ally]

The idea that alcoholism is a disease and one that is beyond the control of the afflicted is a myth that has been perpetuated and lobbied for by Alcoholics Anonymous which has a vested interest in it being perceived as such. This despite research that shows that many 'diagnosed' alcoholics CAN go back to moderate drinking, and that is it not the all or nothing proposition that the propaganda on it would have you believe. But god forbid you tell people that it's in their power to control. Then AA has no power over you. And they can sit comfy in their idea that it's not their fault, it's a "disease" and they are victims.

All of the women chose prostitution as a way of life. Not just Mary and Elizabeth. They made a CHOICE, they weren't hapless children forced against their will into doing it. There were thousands of women in desperate poverty in the East End. They didn't all become prostitutes. Yes, many did. Those that made a choice. It might have been a hard, horrid, appalling choice for them; or it might have been a choice no more difficult than deciding what to have for lunch, but in the end they made a choice. Pretending that "it just happened to them" demeans them.

I think the difference is this: Some people think seeing the victims as anything other than poor victims is demeaning to them. They were killed, so we can't speak honestly about their failings without being "judge and jury". I personally think that seeing them as nothing more than victims demeans them. It's merely a competing philosophy of what it is worse to be perceived as being. I would rather be perceived as a whore who made my choices than a poor pathetic perpetual victim of circumstances beyond my control.

[Celesta]

Hello Celesta!

Your comment reminds me of the following problem;

A slang-word for a "gypsy" is "mustalainen" ("musta" means black in Finnish, "-lainen" is like! ) in Finland.

The following thing puzzles me;

These days the correct word for a gypsy here is "Romani".

But when a Romani calls him/herself "mustalainen", is it racism?!

All the best
Jukka

Hi Jukka,

I understand exactly what you're saying. We have a similar thing here with some of the African-American people. They sometimes refer to a fellow African-American using the "N" word. Is this racist? Why do they do it? I've never asked because I feel that they would tell me it's none of my business! I live in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and just walking around I hear them call each other the N word not infrequently! It offends me, but I just keep my mouth shut, wave, and move on. So, I guess it's context, Jukka.

Best to you.

Celesta

[Robert]

I believe in Yugoslavia there is a joke that "gypsies stole the fourth nail at the crucifixion." I suppose some people would censor that, but why? Let's have everybody telling jokes about everyone.

Robert

[caz]

Hi Nats,

Actually, I was doing the opposite of judging the victims on the basis of what they did to earn money. Jack judged them to be expendable and it was his weakness for murder and mutilation that doomed them. I certainly don't blame them in their circumstances if they took to drink to dull their senses when they could see no way out of their situation. That does not even begin to compare with the selfish gits who are a million times better off in every possible way than those women were in 1888, but abuse alcohol today (or drugs or food or whatever) while their families suffer all the consequences.

It was just astonishingly bad luck (like the reverse of winning the lottery if you like) that they were the 'unfortunates' to encounter a serial killer, out of all the others like them who just carried on living their miserable lives in poverty until they died some other way. I would no more judge the victims for selling their orifices to survive another day than I would judge the match girls for selling their jaws and hoping not to get a 'phossy' one in the process. Both occupations involved men taking immoral advantage of women's bits, and both were likely to cause suffering and premature death.

I think it only adds insult to injury when some people today choose to ignore the evidence that a Whitechapel victim only got her throat cut because she had the huge misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and instead seek to conjure up all kinds of unsupported scenarios involving a wronged boyfriend getting even.

Love,

Caz
X

[Dan Norder]

I believe in Yugoslavia there is a joke that "gypsies stole the fourth nail at the crucifixion." I suppose some people would censor that, but why? Let's have everybody telling jokes about everyone.

This is off topic (like lots of posts on the boards), but that one isn't exactly a joke. It's a longstanding bit of folklore both among the Romani and others that gypsies ran off with a mail or other implement that was going to be used when putting Jesus on the cross. Some non-gypsies consider this a slam against the group in an offshoot of the eternal Wandering Jew story and that the gypsies as a whole were forced to wander the world as a curse for being thieves and insulting Jesus in some way. (The standard tale is that a Jew hit/assaulted Jesus as he carried his cross and was individually cursed to wander the world, never knowing death until the end of the world.) Some gypsies believe that stealing the nail (or one of the whips or some weapon that was going to be used, etc.) lessened Jesus' pain and so that they were rewarded with never having to settle and (in some versions) with the gift of expertise in blacksmithing. So, anyway, some gypsies would be surprised and probably even offended to learn that that's thought of as a joke.

But now back to the regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

[Christine]

What was a Romani doing in first century Palestine? It's amazing what some people will take seriously!

[John Bennett]

The idea that alcoholism is a disease and one that is beyond the control of the afflicted is a myth that has been perpetuated and lobbied for by Alcoholics Anonymous which has a vested interest in it being perceived as such. This despite research that shows that many 'diagnosed' alcoholics CAN go back to moderate drinking, and that is it not the all or nothing proposition that the propaganda on it would have you believe. But god forbid you tell people that it's in their power to control. Then AA has no power over you. And they can sit comfy in their idea that it's not their fault, it's a "disease" and they are victims.

I agree, Ally. Alcoholism is NOT a disease.

It is an unfortunate result of over-dependence on a substance that can 'make one feel good' or forget. Habit can also be a major factor on reliance.

I'm sure there's somebody here who could give a more educated summise of acoholism than me, though.

[Sam Flynn]

What was a Romani doing in first century Palestine?

Going home, perhaps? ("Romani ite domum" - The Life of Brian)

[John Bennett]

Romans They Go The House?????