Different Killers

[Batman]

Schwartz should be there. Nothing wrong with him.

Schwartz had every reason to be on Berner Street at the time and place.

He would have passed that spot at the time and place going home.

Nobody has demonstrated he shouldn't have been there.

Given that he must be there and in the 21st century would be tracked down and investigated, to say Schwartz lied is akin to someone being in a bank during a robbery and then lying about what the robbers did.

There is no reason to make him dissapear. On the other hand the things that don't appear - no blood on scarf, no gravitational flow of blood down her front, render this guess about upright rear attacks simply fantasy... Which is something Schwartz never described as he described frontal blitz.

[lynn cates]

Learn!

Hello BM. How ironic. I have had no fewer than two intelligent conversations with John and Abby, when, suddenly, you appear, ramping and raving like Polyphemus the Cyclops.

Go learn something about forensic reconstruction. Then we can talk.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello BM. How ironic. I have had no fewer than two intelligent conversations with John and Abby, when, suddenly, you appear, ramping and raving like Polyphemus the Cyclops.

Go learn something about forensic reconstruction. Then we can talk.

Cheers.
LC

That of course means Schwartz should never have been there! Why didn't I think of that. Nice rebuttal. Slam dunk. Solves the absence of blood and gravitational spray.

Having lurked here and read your 1000s of posts and others for years, you think you could handle a few criticisms over the course of a few weeks without resorting to ad hominems and to tell people go learn. Go learn what? Magic? To ignore McNaughton's memo? Bonds account of there being the C5?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Not bad.

My problem begins with his circling back. IF he is drunk at this time, surely he was drunk when spotted by PC Smith and the rest?

One might also wonder about Liz's cooling off period between the BSM assault and their going into the yard.

1. IF she were hesitant before, surely more so later?

2. BSM is taking a terrible risk in both waiting for her to get calm AND wondering whether the nearest constable were coming.

But, most difficult of all, is to get this to harmonise with the later body position.

But, as I said to John, I am entirely open.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

My problem begins with his circling back. IF he is drunk at this time, surely he was drunk when spotted by PC Smith and the rest?

I believe in Schwartz police statement, he says nothing about the man being drunk, or walking tipsy. In the newspaper account, I believe he is described as walking tipsy, certainly not staggering drunk. If there was any noticeable "tipsy" walking seen by Schwartz, perhaps it is because BS man is angered. Like when people describe some one as "shaking mad".

1. IF she were hesitant before, surely more so later?

2. BSM is taking a terrible risk in both waiting for her to get calm AND wondering whether the nearest constable were coming.

Yes there is a problem with this, and I have, admittedly struggled with this before. In this scenario, she simply decides to accommodate. Perhaps she realizes the sugar daddy scenario is out, so she might as well make the most of it.

Point 2.-Yes he is-and perhaps that is why he skiddadles before he can finish.

But, most difficult of all, is to get this to harmonise with the later body position.

Why would this scenario not Harmonise with her body position?

[Batman]

retroactive double standards

Dr. Bond? Ah, yes! I seem to remember. He was the bloke who saw all of one victim yet had a good bit to say. No doubt, he--like Inspector Harry "Snapper" Organs--kept tabs of his every movement, by reading the colour supplements? (heh-heh)

But I can see why you like his opinion--you share MUCH in common.

Cheers.
LC

How can you critic Bond for making a forensic statement not having been there to see the body and in the next breath try to sell your own forensic interpretation of events, even though you where not there to see the body?

You can't throw blame at people for spotting such conflicts if you are the one introducing them. This is just a smudge of an example if the sort of confusing things I have been reading from you for years.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Speculation is never a problem. That is how one learns.

OK, let's waive all problems with parcels, descriptions, etc. and save them for a later stage.

Let's commence with Liz leading "JTR" into the yard. She takes out a cachous. Will you agree to some/any of the following?

1. She is facing west and "JTR" is just behind her.

2. If he grabs her scarf and pulls her backwards, she should end up head facing east.

3. She is west of the opened gates, somewhere between them and the side door.

Q: If she were planning on having sex with a client, where was it supposed to have taken place?

i) If behind the gates, why have they been passed going west?

ii) If inside the club, surely she knew the layout?

iii) If near the privy, the smell would have been a factor?

I am wide open to suggestion--especially so, since you are the first person I have encountered who can understand this line of reasoning.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thank you for your kind and supportive comments.

Okay, as you've probably guessed crime scene geography is not one of my strong suits but I do have three theories regarding the positioning of the body.

Firstly, let me quickly get out of the way the most outlandish theory. Is it possible the killer moved the body after Stride was killed? The only reason I raise this point is that, if Keppel et al. are correct, it might at least fit in with JtR's signature profile: they regard the posing of the body as one of his signature characteristics. In fact, they argue that "Stride was dropped on her side initially, and then left lying flat on her back with her wounds exposed." Of course, this would also result in further delay before he can begin thinking about mutilating the body.

Secondly, could the position of the body be affected by Stride being spun round by her killer as he attacked her from behind?

Thirdly, a possible scenario. You clearly raise a good point about where the sex with the client was supposed to take place, particularly as Dutfield's Yard doesn't seem to have been utilized by street prostitutes.

So what if the killer entices Stride to the location by telling her that he has a room they can go to at the Berner Street club; perhaps further elaborating by stating that it can be accessed by the side door? Of course, this would be a lie, unless, of course, he happened to be called Joseph Lave! But this is insignificant from the killer's perspective because all he wants to do is to entice Stride into Dutfield's Yard.

This theory might be attractive from another perspective. I speculated earlier that Stride may have been reluctant to accept the man as a client, as evidenced by the earlier sightings of Smith and Brown, which were up to half an hour before the likely time of death. Well, could that reluctance have been because she doesn't want to have sex with the man out in the open i.e. because she is reluctant to get her pretty dress soiled? Maybe she's higher up the pecking order than Nichols and Chapman and is no where near as desperate for money, so can afford to insist on certain standards. She's also been seen in the company of other men earlier in the evening, so maybe she's already earned enough money for the night.

Of course, this may well have thwarted the killer's original plan, i.e. it eventually becomes clear to him that he will not be able to persuade her to go with him to his chosen location, so he's forced to improvise. He remembers Dutfield's Yard from when he was stood opposite the club with Stride, as witnessed by PC Smith, and decides it's just about adequate for his purpose, i.e. because it's dark. However, because it's a quickly improvised location he possibly fails to give enough weight in his considerations to the risks implied by the busy club. Nonetheless, at least the presence of the club allows for the convenient lie about the room.

Now, once he's got Stride into Dutfield's Yard the subject of payment arises: maybe it's brought up by Stride, maybe by her killer. Her killer then feigns looking in his pockets for the right change: of course, what he's really doing is locating the knife. During this period Stride, perfectly relaxed, wanders a short distance- this explanation allows for numerous possibilities as to where she ends up being positioned- and takes out and eats the cachous. However, with Stride now completely off guard the killer can now adjust his position, quietly but decisively drawing himself up behind his victim and launching his assault.

What do you think? All comments, even negative ones, gratefully accepted. In any event, I doubt this will be a final draft, particularly as I clearly need to brush up on my crime scene geography!

Regards,

John

[Batman]

Firstly, let me quickly get out of the way the most outlandish theory. Is it possible the killer moved the body after Stride was killed?

What is so outlandish about that? You don't even need him to do it either, others did it for him. On the record too...


1. Louis Diemschutz pony shied next the body.
2. Louis Diemschutz prodded the body with his stick.
3. Louis Diemschutz tried to lift the body (which he thought was a sack) with the same stick.
4. People where all over the murder scene messing up footprints with theirs.
5. Edward Spooner was tilting her head around and back and eventually could see the terrible deep gash on ner neck.
6. PC Lamb then proceeds to check the body.

... and then Dr.Blackwell arrives.

[John G]

What is so outlandish about that? You don't even need him to do it either, others did it for him. On the record too...


1. Louis Diemschutz pony shied next the body.
2. Louis Diemschutz prodded the body with his stick.
3. Louis Diemschutz tried to lift the body (which he thought was a sack) with the same stick.
4. People where all over the murder scene messing up footprints with theirs.
5. Edward Spooner was tilting her head around and back and eventually could see the terrible deep gash on ner neck.
6. PC Lamb then proceeds to check the body.

... and then Dr.Blackwell arrives.

Hi Batman,

Yes, thanks, your original comments about the body being moved influenced my thinking. Clearly posing the body would be consistent with Keppel's signature analysis and I've also just edited my post, i.e. by developing the argument to include the fact that, in this scenario, the killer would have to further delay carrying out the mutilations whilst he spent time posing the body.

[John G]

Hi Abby,

Thanks. I have doubts about the James Brown sighting myself, although he at least appeared at the inquest whereas Schwartz, of course, didn't. And any scenario that excludes BS man is obviously fortified by this possible sighting as it's clearly much closer to the time of death than PC Smith's sighting.

I've also always been attracted by Brown's description of the man having a very long coat- pity he didn't mention Any Astrakhan trimming!- because I've always thought JtR might wear such a coat, i.e. because it would surely be ideal for the purposes of covering up any blood or gore.

I've also been influenced by the comments overheard by Brown-"not tonight, possibly some other night"- as they at least seem to imply that Stride was being propositioned by a client.

[lynn cates]

dovetailing

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Very well. I'll waive the tipsy.

But the body position? there can be no doubt whatsoever that her assailant is just behind her and to her right. And, unless she prefers to walk about, cachous in hand, she was pausing to retrieve one.

Any scenario that dovetails with this is fair game.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello John. Thanks.

Moved the body? Perhaps that cannot be ruled out. But, as regards posing, help me understand what a pose is? She lay on one side, legs drawn up slightly, and looking as if she had been "laid gently down."

Kate, one leg bent and out, one spread out. I could go on, but you get the idea. If all these DISPARATE positions indicate posing, fine. But then the word has no meaning, for ANY position counts as a pose.

"could the position of the body be affected by Stride being spun round by her killer as he attacked her from behind?"

Yes. That is precisely my view. Of course, they would be facing east, ostensibly headed OUT of the yard.

As regards his enticing her into the yard: that's OK. If I understand you properly, he leads her towards the door. Then stops. She turns and walks away, headed east. Stops for cachous. He strikes.

But would she be suspicious when approaching the door, hearing music and dancing? But perhaps he indicates a private room?

Let me know if I got this right.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

If all these DISPARATE positions indicate posing, fine. But then the word has no meaning, for ANY position counts as a pose.

The victims didn't do the posing. Their killer did.

Did the victims place their own organs around themselves or something?

Did Chapman and Eddowes place their goods about themselves?

The best you can do is maybe that they hiked their dresses.

We haven't even begun to address the spreading of legs, being flat on their backs, looking peaceful, arm resting on the breast and in another resting on the belly or the way their clothes where cut/torn.

The idea of coincidence seems to be lurking in the background of alternative explanations.

Let's face it. If you have a killer in mind for Nichols/Chapman, who is in jail/put away while Stride was killed, and if the same person did all 3, then not only is that person not the killer, but is exhonerated because they where in jail/put away. Free. Cleared. No longer subject to blame.

... and if you don't think Stride is included... you still have Eddowes to contend with!

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Moved the body? Perhaps that cannot be ruled out. But, as regards posing, help me understand what a pose is? She lay on one side, legs drawn up slightly, and looking as if she had been "laid gently down."

Kate, one leg bent and out, one spread out. I could go on, but you get the idea. If all these DISPARATE positions indicate posing, fine. But then the word has no meaning, for ANY position counts as a pose.

"could the position of the body be affected by Stride being spun round by her killer as he attacked her from behind?"

Yes. That is precisely my view. Of course, they would be facing east, ostensibly headed OUT of the yard.

As regards his enticing her into the yard: that's OK. If I understand you properly, he leads her towards the door. Then stops. She turns and walks away, headed east. Stops for cachous. He strikes.

But would she be suspicious when approaching the door, hearing music and dancing? But perhaps he indicates a private room?

Let me know if I got this right.

Cheers.
LC

Hallo Lynn,

Yes, a private room may make more sense. However, I'm not sure that a suggestion by him that he had some sort of private accommodation within the club would create too many difficulties; if he'd been gaining Stride's confidence over a period of, say, half an hour the music and dancing might seem a little confusing, however, the possibility of a trap is something she would perhaps be unlikely to contemplate. I'm also not sure how many entrances there were to the club: might the presence of the revellers work somewhat to the killer's advantage if there was more than one entrance? He could have told Stride that he needed to sneak her into the club by the side door to avoid detection, i.e. because he wasn't supposed to have "guests" in his room.

I did, of course, suggest that the killer could have got behind Stride by distracting her, i.e. by pretending to look for money or the keys to the door. During the time of this distraction Stride briefly turns away, heading east, and pulls out and eats the cachous. Whilst I consider this is still a possibility it's probably a little contrived. After all, he can achieve the same result simply by slowing his pace a little so Stride gets in front of him. In this scenario the body position might be accounted for by Stride being spun round? I must confess I borrowed that idea from you! However, if I've understood you correctly a potential problem with this scenario is that they would be facing east and headed out of the Yard? However, as you seem to suggest in your reply to Abby, maybe Liz dropped one of the cachous and went to retrieve it, leaving her off guard, and the killer simply took his chance.

I think it's also worth considering things from the perspective of, say, a simpler domestic killing, or one where the killer's only objective is to cut the throat. In these circumstances, the killer could surely afford to be a lot less cautious. After all, if Stride were to cry out, or resist her assailant, her killer would surely still have plenty of time to escape before the club effectively responded: firstly, anyone investigating would have to discover Stride's body- remember Louis initially thought he was looking down at a bundle of rags because it was so dark; secondly, like Louis, their next move is likely to go back into the club to summon assistance. I mean, I somehow cannot envisage, say Mrs Eagle, heading off in hot pursuit of a knife-wielding maniac!

However, if Stride was killed by JtR he's got a much bigger problem as his main objective is to mutilate and that clearly requires time; he simply cannot afford to risk being disturbed too early. Consideration also needs to be given to the victim: Liz was, of course, known as "Long Liz", because she was quite tall. Moreover, she clearly wasn't ill like Annie, or as intoxicated as Polly. Therefore, unless her killer caught her totally by surprise there surely would be a far greater likelihood that she would resit or cry out: a problem further exasperated by the presence of the club.

Turning to the question of posing the body. I adapted that theory from Keppel et al. (2005) It is there contention that the C5 plus Tabram are linked by this signature characteristic.: "In all of the cases, except when the killer was interrupted in the Stride case, he left the bodies posed flat on their backs. Stride was dropped on her side initially, and then left lying with her wounds exposed. He often left the victims' legs splayed and their genitalia exposed in a sexually degrading manner, such as Tabram, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly murders. Each murder had some element of posing, from the arrangement of clothes, the placement of a thimble, the splaying of legs, to the arrangement of organs, intestines and tissues."

Regards,

John

[Batman]

In this scenario the body position might be accounted for by Stride being spun round? I must confess I borrowed that idea from you! However, if I've understood you correctly a potential problem with this scenario is that they would be facing east and headed out of the Yard?

In Lynn's video, the rear attack involves Lynn putting his left arm around her shoulders, his right hand in his right pocket. He then grabs the scarf with his left hand (not seen clearly in video due to angle) and pulls her downwards to the left while with his right hand with instrument goes for the throat. She has turned to her left (so her head is facing west) and also is beginning to be almost facing with the ground as her throat is cut, before landing on her left side. It almost looks like a Judo throw. As if she is ducking down to the left and using the weight of her right shoulder with Lynn's arm around it to throw him over her, so she ends up with head towards door, feet towards the floor.

I think in this scenario, there would be blood on the wall, window, her front and potentially up his right arm. Lynn thinks none will appear there.

[John G]

In Lynn's video, the rear attack involves Lynn putting his left arm around her shoulders, his right hand in his right pocket. He then grabs the scarf with his left hand (not seen clearly in video due to angle) and pulls her downwards to the left while with his right hand with instrument goes for the throat. She has turned to her left (so her head is facing west) and also is beginning to be almost facing with the ground as her throat is cut, before landing on her left side. It almost looks like a Judo throw. As if she is ducking down to the left and using the weight of her right shoulder with Lynn's arm around it to throw him over her, so she ends up with head towards door, feet towards the floor.

I think in this scenario, there would be blood on the wall, window, her front and potentially up his right arm. Lynn thinks none will appear there.

Thanks for that Batman. I did see the video a little while ago but to be honest I struggle a little with visual learning- it takes a while to sink in!