Different Killers

[lynn cates]

Good encounters make good neighbours.

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"I think Stride was quick in not liking this fellow."

Well, if the Schwartz story were true, I can see why. Something there is that doesn't love being thrown to the ground.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

drop

Hello Mike. Thanks.

OK, but the obvious difficulty is the role of the cachous. Gripping them tightly? Normal for pursuit is to drop and run.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

understanding

Hello John. Thanks.

No, it is trying to understand Israel's story. Sorry, but it just does not fit.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

If his story doesn't fit then why not?

He was there at the time and place because he had to be passing it on his way home.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Let's suppose that he posed the body--for whatever reason. Obviously it was done post mortem. Hence, it obviates ALL possible explanatory value of cuts vs interruption. (Ie, when I have asked various and sundry why, if Liz died by the same hand as Polly and Annie, 1. she lacked the double cuts and 2. why her single wound was not so deep as theirs. The reply has often been along the lines of, Well, he was interrupted. But if he stopped cutting and THEN moved the body, interruption has nothing to do with the number or depth of cuts.)

"Obviously a scenario that involves Stride exiting the yard with her killer right behind her presents difficulties, not least because her apparently relaxed state suggests she was not immediately aware of any danger."

Yes, and THIS is my bottom line. (Wish EVERYONE found it obvious.)

". . . but again I'm not really happy with that either. As I noted on an earlier post, if he just wanted to get behind Stride why not just slightly slow his pace?"

Yes, and again, this is going OUT of the yard.

And IF Liz had changed her mind, that would account for the sudden exit. But she must--as you point out--be relaxed and confident enough to take a cashou from her pocket.

General sense of foreboding? That would work well PROVIDED she reacted customarily. In other words, she should be walking east fairly rapidly WITHOUT any thought of cachous.

You refer to her "still holding the cachous." Where/when did they first come into her hand?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

As I see it there are a number of challenges to any scenario: the cachous problem; avoiding a conspiracy theory (which I don't accept); and a violent argument/fight involving a passing drunk/psychotic security guard/disorganized thug/enraged lover, that would surely imply a highly disorganized attack, which should have woken up half the neighbourhood, not least Mrs D who was sat in the kitchen with the window open.

Okay a modified theory. Stride may well have been in the locality for some time as suggested by the possible early sightings by PC Smith and James Brown. I don't think it's unreasonable to presume that she was soliciting, and the fact that she may have been seen with other men earlier in the evening adds force to the argument.

Eventually she finds her way to the gates of the club. She may have been waiting for someone from the club, however if that was the case that would also imply a cover-up.

Perhaps she was on her way home and was simply resting. Maybe she was attracted by all the gaiety emanating from the club, or maybe she was hoping to pick up a client, i.e a club member exiting the club.

So, she's standing there, happily eating the cachous, when she's approached by a man: he intends to commit murder and has a location set aside for that purpose. Intending to lure her into a trap, he asks if she's soliciting (or words to that effect!) Stride, however, has some moderate concerns: maybe there's something about the man she doesn't like, perhaps his suggested location is too far away. Could he be the same man seen by James Brown, whose offer she may, therefore, have already declined previously? Anyway, she's higher up the pecking order than Polly or Annie and no where near as desperate; she can afford to be more selective in her choice of client. She politely declines the man's offer.

Her killer realizes he has to quickly improvize, his initial plan having failed. He notices Dutfield's Yard, not an ideal murder location, particularly if you intend to mutilate the victim afterwards, but at least it's dark.

He therefore changes tack. In order to get Stride into the Yard, without resorting to force, which would be likely to attract attention, he resorts to a little subterfuge: he senses that she's attracted to all the revelry going on in the club so he tells her he's a club member and offers to get her into the club and to buy her a drink.

Stride readily agrees. Even if she had earlier concerns about the man, the club's obviously a public place and, once inside, she can always ditch him and look for a more suitable client.

They enter the Yard, Stride still relaxed at this stage, not sensing danger, happily still eating the cachous, her killer right behind her. The man doesn't strike immediately; he wants to get deeper into the yard where it's darker and further away from the gates, reducing the risk of a passer-by noticing anything. This is of particular importance if he needs time with the body, i.e. in order to mutilate. However, as noted in my earlier post, Stride starts to have second thoughts, perhaps sensing something's not quite right. Maybe it's something he says; perhaps she senses him reaching into his pocket for something, whilst drawing himself up behind her, almost breathing down her neck. And if it is the same man that James Brown might have seen her with, this premonition might be reinforcing earlier concerns: "not tonight, maybe some other night."

She has little time to react and her options are limited. If she runs further into the Yard she'll reach a dead end. She could quickly run to the side door, but it may be locked. Crying out, might provoke an instant attack and, anyway, the man hasn't done anything yet and she could be mistaken about his intentions.

Therefore, she abruptly stops, She still has the cachous in her hand, which she's been eating since the initial encounter, because until this sudden change of mind/ awareness of danger, she's been reasonably relaxed.

Stride makes a sudden decision. She turns and starts to walk briskly, at an angle, heading East (if I've got the geography correct!) Clearly she has to do this because she has to bypass/brush past the man, who is stood right behind her in a narrow passage. She doesn't drop the cachous: her mind is totally focussed on getting back to the street, where it's lighter and public. In fact, if she's suddenly struck by fear, she might even instinctively grasp them tighter.

Unfortunately, although initially caught off guard, her killer quickly reacts: he reaches out and grabs hold of the scarf propelling Stride backwards; he then quickly and silently slits her throat.

What do you think?

[John G]

Here is a simple question. Is the above consistent with Schwartz's witness statement or not?

Hi Batman,

If only because of the Scwartz evidence wouldn't reject BS man out of hand. Although, of course, this sighting was at 12:45, if Schwatrz's timings are correct, and I believe Stride was killed much closer to 1:00am; this is supported by Spooner's evidence and is much more consistent with the killer being disturbed by Louis.

However, I feel any argument involving BS man needs to explain why, after being assaulted, Stride would feel relaxed enough in the man's company to take out and eat the cachous. That's why I postulated that BS man may have given Stride the cachous by way of an apology, i.e. in order to subsequently tempt her into the Yard.

[Batman]

Some women carry small packages up their sleeves. My mum had tissues up there. Stride's body was disturbed by lots of people. Could they have become dislodged then? I honestly wouldn't put it passed locals there to have put it back in her hand after knocking it out or putting it from beside her back in. For example Chapman had rings missing. I don't think Jack was a trinket taker. His trophies are organs. I think somebody robbed the body after she was discovered. Then there is just the simple fact people hold onto things falling backwards.

[lynn cates]

Por que no.

Hello Batman. Thanks.

It does not fit because:

1, She died in the passageway.

2. She has her head to the west, feet east.

3. Not a frontal assault as Israel described.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

least convoluted

Hello John. Thanks.

Of course, there were about a half dozen cachous left. And only so many can fit into tissue paper and, in turn, between the thumb and forefinger.

Surely, the least convoluted theory for the cachous involves her facing east and pausing to retrieve one from her pocket?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello (again) John.

Regarding time: you'll notice that the AF article claims she died at 12.45.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello (again) John.

Regarding time: you'll notice that the AF article claims she died at 12.45.

Cheers.
LC

That would clearly be consistent with the time given by Scwartz, as regards the BS man incident. However, I'm not convinced the AF report is accurate. Spooner said that there was still blood gushing from her neck when he arrived, which must have been after 1:00am, which surely indicates a later time of death. Okay, I know he estimated 12:35 but that can't be right as there were people gathered around the body when he arrived. And didn't PC Smith arrive at around 1:00am, after being told a body had only just been discovered? Surely, if Spooner had been hanging around for about half an hour at that time he's going to get suspicious if club members started insisting that the body had only just been found! And if the doctors et al. were also told 1:00am that would indicate a major conspiracy.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Of course, there were about a half dozen cachous left. And only so many can fit into tissue paper and, in turn, between the thumb and forefinger.

Surely, the least convoluted theory for the cachous involves her facing east and pausing to retrieve one from her pocket?

Cheers.
LC

Hallo Lynn,

Yes, perhaps. I think account also needs to be taken of the darkness of the passage. According to Lave, it was so dark he couldn't find the door to get back into the club. If Stride, did have any sense of foreboding surely that would be reinforced by the pitch black darkness. Regarding the cachous, if Stride did pause to retrieve a cachous from her pocket, could she have adjusted her position in order to get to a better lit part of the passageway, i.e. so that she could properly see what she was doing? I mean, if we accept Lave then she probably couldn't even see her pocket, or for that matter, her hand! Sorry if I've misunderstood, as I keep pointing out crime scene geography is a bit of a weak point!

I also feel the darkness has implications for the theory that she met her attacker at the side door: surely if Lave's evidence is correct they wouldn't have been able to see each other.

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

It does not fit because:

1, She died in the passageway.

2. She has her head to the west, feet east.

3. Not a frontal assault as Israel described.

Cheers.
LC

1. Only a few feet from the pavement. A few feet from the gate. Incredibly short dragging distance.
2. He is not dragging her by the feet. Neck more likely. Head first. That's west. Feet point at gate.
3. Israel said , he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly.

Since this chap has no problem turning her then turning is not a limiting factor.

As a point. Pulling someone towards you, so that they pull backwards is a fast way to get them to use their weight to hit the deck. As they pull back, you push and they go down very quickly. The fact she isn't shouting loudly tells me that he is already likely still over her and choking her.

[John G]

1. Only a few feet from the pavement. A few feet from the gate. Incredibly short dragging distance.
2. He is not dragging her by the feet. Neck more likely. Head first. That's west. Feet point at gate.
3. Israel said , he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly.

Since this chap has no problem turning her then turning is not a limiting factor.

Hi Batman,

Why is he dragging her? Could it be, as I've suggested before, to pose the body? Or could he be dragging her further into the Yard, i.e. because it's darker- almost pitch black-and further away from the gate? This might be crucial if he intends to mutilate. And if he's dragging the body from behind it could surely end up in almost any position. Of course, that doesn't account for the problem of the cachous.

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

Why is he dragging her? Could it be, as I've suggested before, to pose the body? Or could he be dragging her further into the Yard, i.e. because it's darker- almost pitch black-and further away from the gate? This might be crucial if he intends to mutilate. And if he's dragging the body from behind it could surely end up in almost any position. Of course, that doesn't account for the problem of the cachous.

He knew Dutsfield Yard.
He knew it was near a Jewish club.
A prostitute around there is a perfect mark.
He sees Stride. Now is his chance. She is alone. Open Yard behind her.
Prepares to act drunk and vulnerable.
He asks to go in there with her for a quickie.
She refuses him.
She gets VERY suspicious.
He knew she might cry JtR.
He doesn't want a crowd in a club going after him.
Just get her down so she can't run away. She has seen his face. Up close. Too much.
He blitzes her.
Schwartz is coming behind him. Has seen everything.
Cries out 'Lipski' to blame her attack on a Jew and to scare him away.
Pipeman is in a doorway opposite and doesn't see anything but sees Schwartz running. Schwartz sees him because his face lights up with his pipe. He can't see them. They are not lit. Has heard Lipski. Is worried this Jew running away has done something. Goes after him but later changes his mind.
By this stage BS man has her by her scarf and is pulling her a very short distance into the doorway to get himself off the main road. Too many people.
Inside the doorway he drags her over to where she is found later. She is unconcious or near it. He kills her here.
He decides that he isn't sufficiently deep enough into the yard and anything coming out the door will see him. He has already been spotted. He has already cried Lipski. He poses her. He leaves the yard. He is a blood lust because he only completed an MO not a signature. Goes West. The timing corresponds with Eddowes release. If she goes S.E and he goes W then there is a goldilocks zone where she potentially comes into his view. That's all he needs.
Locals at the club trample all the footprints and drag marks into mud. Disturb the body. Sweet bag falls from sleeve.