Different Killers

[Batman]

the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims—& 5 victims only - 1960?

Hello BM. Thanks.

But it IS your script. And your beloved "traditional" C5 began ca 1960.

Do the research. Then we can talk.

Cheers.
LC

My script? 1960?

1. What about 10 November 1888. Thomas Bond to Robert Anderson?
2. What about 1894 Sir Melville Macnaghten?

Canonical just means these can be linked. Not that there isn't more.

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/memo.html

(1) 31st August, '88. Mary Ann Nichols -- at Buck's Row -- who was found with her throat cut -- & with (slight) stomach mutilation.
(2) 8th Sept. '88 Annie Chapman -- Hanbury St.; -- throat cut -- stomach & private parts badly mutilated & some of the entrails placed round the neck.
(3) 30th Sept. '88. Elizabeth Stride -- Berner's Street -- throat cut, but nothing in shape of mutilation attempted, & on same date
Catherine Eddowes -- Mitre Square, throat cut & very bad mutilation, both of face and stomach.
9th November. Mary Jane Kelly -- Miller's Court, throat cut, and the whole of the body mutilated in the most ghastly manner --


1960. Pull the other one. Good laugh.

[John G]

Hello John. Quite.

Unless she expected to use them for self-defense. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn. Of course, as I've argued before being relaxed and taking out the cachous isn't really consistent with a more mundane domestic murder either, as in this scenario you would have expected some sought of argument or heated discussion beforehand. However, it might be consistent with Liz being caught off-guard by a charming, apparently unthreatening Ted Bundy type of killer. Like for instance the type of man who may have killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly.

Sorry Lynn, that was a little unfair of me but I couldn't resist!

[lynn cates]

meeting

Hello John. Thanks.

No, not unfair. "This above all, to thine own self be true. Then it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

So, where did she meet this bloke? Feel free to conjecture. Are they leaving the yard?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

It is interesting that you quote an expert who identifies sexual overtones. If you read the literature from before the '60's, the experts were just certain that it was a series of revenge killings for VD.

Dr. Bond disgrees with you from beyond the grave....
The murderer must have been a man of physical strength and of great coolness and daring. There is no evidence that he had an accomplice. He must in my opinion be a man subject to periodical attacks of Homicidal and erotic mania. The character of the mutilations indicate that the man may be in a condition sexually, that may be called satyriasis.

Wow, that's a big word. Any idea what it means Lynn?

[RockySullivan]

Dr. Bond disgrees with you from beyond the grave....
The murderer must have been a man of physical strength and of great coolness and daring. There is no evidence that he had an accomplice. He must in my opinion be a man subject to periodical attacks of Homicidal and erotic mania. The character of the mutilations indicate that the man may be in a condition sexually, that may be called satyriasis.

Wow, that's a big word. Any idea what it means Lynn?

Batman there was a discussion at satyriasis here a while back I believe. If I remember correctly it's used to describe someone who spends all there time looking for sex and obsessed with having it. A little different than nymphomania I think. Maybe I read it in a ripper book actually in one of the opening chapters I'm unsure now

[Batman]

Batman there was a discussion at satyriasis here a while back I believe. If I remember correctly it's used to describe someone who spends all there time looking for sex and obsessed with having it. A little different than nymphomania I think. Maybe I read it in a ripper book actually in one of the opening chapters I'm unsure now

I think "Homicidal and erotic mania" might be a clue as to what he was trying to get at.

I have no doubt that the investigators believed the C5 to be sex crimes. Today they are called lust murders. Serial lust murders from what I remember.

I just had to really shake my head at this idea that calling these sex crimes was something post-Austin Powers and not contemporary.

[RockySullivan]

I think "Homicidal and erotic mania" might be a clue as to what he was trying to get at.

I have no doubt that the investigators believed the C5 to be sex crimes. Today they are called lust murders. Serial lust murders from what I remember.

I just had to really shake my head at this idea that calling these sex crimes was something post-Austin Powers and not contemporary.

My guess is it's rare for a serial killer who targets prostitutes to not be a john who patronized them. Is this correct?

[Batman]

My guess is it's rare for a serial killer who targets prostitutes to not be a john who patronized them. Is this correct?

I don't honestly know. What I get is that its a love hate relationship or something. Some go with them and don't kill them for example. Then one day, they do.

However there is no doubt JtR is a rare type of lust killer, even by today's standards. Something I learned on here reading Keppel on JtR. Keppel who identified Ted Bundy from what I remember. Heck Keppel was the guy who eventually got Bundy to open up and reveal his darkest secret. That he was necrophiliac. This gave Keppel insights into how they should stake out body locations in the Green River case and he identified Ridgeway. I think that's right? Maybe.

Anyway, I think the fact many of JtRs victims are posed deliberately in sexually humiliating positions was something the investigators didn't fail to miss.

[lynn cates]

Pan-demic

Hello BM. Thanks.

A "satyr" is a fabulous Greek animal. It was supposed to be half man and half goat. Greeks took goats to be excessively libidinous. It is the origin of our expression, "horny old goat."

There is a lovely old Hellenistic era statue, "Aphrodite, Eros and Pan," in which the satyr, Pan, is trying to "score points" with Aphrodite. I cover this in my lectures about Greek civilisation. Perhaps you should register?

Dr. Bond? Ah, yes! I seem to remember. He was the bloke who saw all of one victim yet had a good bit to say. No doubt, he--like Inspector Harry "Snapper" Organs--kept tabs of his every movement, by reading the colour supplements? (heh-heh)

But I can see why you like his opinion--you share MUCH in common.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Mythical creatures invented to blame what a human could never do...

Werewolves, vampires, devils, satyrs...

An interesting a way to explain ancient homicides with mutilations and sexual overtones....

As we all know that no human creature made in the image of god could ever do such things... Satan's minions can only be responsible...

Oh and by the way. This isn't my view. This is the FBI behaviour analysis for the history of serial killers. They didn't just appear in 1888.

[lynn cates]

A myth is as good as a mile.

Hello BM. Thanks.

You have managed to omit one mythical character--"Jack the Ripper." And, after all, he is most mythical of them all.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

No, not unfair. "This above all, to thine own self be true. Then it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

So, where did she meet this bloke? Feel free to conjecture. Are they leaving the yard?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yes, this clearly is going to require a degree of speculation. For the purposes of this exercise I will ignore the Schwartz sighting and instead focus on two other witnesses:PC Smith and James Brown.

Thus, PC Smith stated that he saw Stride with a man at 12:35 opposite the club. He describes the man as being of respectable appearance, about 5ft 7in in height and wearing an overcoat. He was also carrying a parcel.

Subsequently, another witness, James Brown, at around 12:45, believed he also saw Stride with a man on the corner of Fairclough and Berner Street; this was obviously a short distance from the earlier sighting. Although this suspect is not carrying a parcel his description is pretty similar to that of Smith's man: 5ft 7in in height and wearing what Brown describes as a very long coat that comes down nearly to his heals. I feel this might be significant as I can imagine JtR wearing such a coat, i.e. to conceal any blood and gore that he may have got upon his person. Regretfully, Brown doesn't mention if the coat is trimmed with Astrakhan! It might also be worth noting that this man seems pretty relaxed: Brown notices that he had his arm up against the wall.

Okay, this is were things get very speculative. Consider this scenario: during the encounter witnessed by PC Smith the man, let's call him JtR, is trying to persuade Stride, who he realises is soliciting, to go with him into Dutfield's Yard, where he plans to spring his trap (okay not an ideal location, but then neither was Hanbury Street or Mitre Square, and at least it's dark, and maybe like Ted Bundy he was prone to the odd bit of recklessness or perhaps overconfidence). However, Stride's reluctant to accept; despite his respectable appearance maybe there's something about the man she doesn't like, or perhaps Dutfield's Yard is not a location she would normally go to with a client.

Nonetheless, the man is very persistent and follows Stride as she walks away towards Fairclough Street. However, despite the man's persistence Stride is still reluctant to go with him; hence Brown here's her say: "No, not tonight, some other night."

However, JtR is not to be thwarted so easily. He starts to turn on the charm, and possibly offers Stride more money. Eventually Stride is persuaded, as the man is very convincing: she begins to regard this respectably dressed man as unthreatening and, as they walk back towards Dutfield's Yard, she even feels relaxed enough to take out and eat the cachous.

When they get to the Yard Stride walks in first, with JtR right behind. Quickly and decisively he launches his assault, attacking Stride from behind and giving her no opportunity to react or to realise the imminent danger she's in. Employing a strategy he's probably used before he either drags her to the ground before cutting her throat, or uses the scarf as a ligature: both tactics designed to prevent arterial spray. This killer is clearly no novice.

He also has enough time to pose the body, an integral part of JtR's signature: according to Keppel et al (2005): "Stride was dropped on her side initially, and then left lying flat on her back with her wounds exposed." He then prepares to mutilate, although he's forced to pause slightly as he takes stock of the situation, i.e. the difficulties posed by the appalling lighting conditions, but, unfortunately for the killer, things then start to go badly wrong. He hears the approach of Louis's pony and cart, although at this point he can't be certain he'll turn into the yard. However, it's his misfortune that that is exactly what happens, forcing him to take a step or two into the darkness. Of course, as soon as Louis goes for help he seizes upon the opportunity to make good his escape and goes in search of another victim.

So there you have it. I realize there may be one or two flaws in my argument, so please feel free, Lynn, to pull it apart and expose any weaknesses. At least that might give me the opportunity to firm up the theory!

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello John. Thanks.

Speculation is never a problem. That is how one learns.

OK, let's waive all problems with parcels, descriptions, etc. and save them for a later stage.

Let's commence with Liz leading "JTR" into the yard. She takes out a cachous. Will you agree to some/any of the following?

1. She is facing west and "JTR" is just behind her.

2. If he grabs her scarf and pulls her backwards, she should end up head facing east.

3. She is west of the opened gates, somewhere between them and the side door.

Q: If she were planning on having sex with a client, where was it supposed to have taken place?

i) If behind the gates, why have they been passed going west?

ii) If inside the club, surely she knew the layout?

iii) If near the privy, the smell would have been a factor?

I am wide open to suggestion--especially so, since you are the first person I have encountered who can understand this line of reasoning.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

Yes, this clearly is going to require a degree of speculation. For the purposes of this exercise I will ignore the Schwartz sighting and instead focus on two other witnesses:PC Smith and James Brown.

Thus, PC Smith stated that he saw Stride with a man at 12:35 opposite the club. He describes the man as being of respectable appearance, about 5ft 7in in height and wearing an overcoat. He was also carrying a parcel.

Subsequently, another witness, James Brown, at around 12:45, believed he also saw Stride with a man on the corner of Fairclough and Berner Street; this was obviously a short distance from the earlier sighting. Although this suspect is not carrying a parcel his description is pretty similar to that of Smith's man: 5ft 7in in height and wearing what Brown describes as a very long coat that comes down nearly to his heals. I feel this might be significant as I can imagine JtR wearing such a coat, i.e. to conceal any blood and gore that he may have got upon his person. Regretfully, Brown doesn't mention if the coat is trimmed with Astrakhan! It might also be worth noting that this man seems pretty relaxed: Brown notices that he had his arm up against the wall.

Okay, this is were things get very speculative. Consider this scenario: during the encounter witnessed by PC Smith the man, let's call him JtR, is trying to persuade Stride, who he realises is soliciting, to go with him into Dutfield's Yard, where he plans to spring his trap (okay not an ideal location, but then neither was Hanbury Street or Mitre Square, and at least it's dark, and maybe like Ted Bundy he was prone to the odd bit of recklessness or perhaps overconfidence). However, Stride's reluctant to accept; despite his respectable appearance maybe there's something about the man she doesn't like, or perhaps Dutfield's Yard is not a location she would normally go to with a client.

Nonetheless, the man is very persistent and follows Stride as she walks away towards Fairclough Street. However, despite the man's persistence Stride is still reluctant to go with him; hence Brown here's her say: "No, not tonight, some other night."

However, JtR is not to be thwarted so easily. He starts to turn on the charm, and possibly offers Stride more money. Eventually Stride is persuaded, as the man is very convincing: she begins to regard this respectably dressed man as unthreatening and, as they walk back towards Dutfield's Yard, she even feels relaxed enough to take out and eat the cachous.

When they get to the Yard Stride walks in first, with JtR right behind. Quickly and decisively he launches his assault, attacking Stride from behind and giving her no opportunity to react or to realise the imminent danger she's in. Employing a strategy he's probably used before he either drags her to the ground before cutting her throat, or uses the scarf as a ligature: both tactics designed to prevent arterial spray. This killer is clearly no novice.

He also has enough time to pose the body, an integral part of JtR's signature: according to Keppel et al (2005): "Stride was dropped on her side initially, and then left lying flat on her back with her wounds exposed." He then prepares to mutilate, although he's forced to pause slightly as he takes stock of the situation, i.e. the difficulties posed by the appalling lighting conditions, but, unfortunately for the killer, things then start to go badly wrong. He hears the approach of Louis's pony and cart, although at this point he can't be certain he'll turn into the yard. However, it's his misfortune that that is exactly what happens, forcing him to take a step or two into the darkness. Of course, as soon as Louis goes for help he seizes upon the opportunity to make good his escape and goes in search of another victim.

So there you have it. I realize there may be one or two flaws in my argument, so please feel free, Lynn, to pull it apart and expose any weaknesses. At least that might give me the opportunity to firm up the theory!

Hi John G
Not bad. A couple of notes-First the couple seen by brown is probably not stride and the ripper-I think this is probably the young couple seen by Mortimer and packer. This man does not really fit the description of the other witnesses who saw a couple and is not wearing a peaked cap. I think most experts agree with this.

Second, I wouldn't leave BS man out of the equation as he does fit the description, is wearing a peaked cap and is seen assaulting stride close to the murder time.

I would envision a scenario like this:

Stride recently broke up with Kidney, she is not destitute-she has money and is taking care of her appearance as she goes out that night. I would posit she is out looking for a good time and possibly looking for a new boyfriend-not actively solicitating.

She meets peaked cap/BS man out at a pub, he buys her a drink or two, and they walk around for a while as he buys her things, perhaps the flower and or caschous. Hes trying to get her to a secluded place but she is reluctant-she dosnt want to jump right into the prostitute thing/sex, possibly because that would ruin any real relationship with the man and perhaps shes wary because of the WC murders.

He doesn't really fit the profile of the murders in her mind but shes cautious. The witness Marshall sees them at this time and overhears the man say "you would say anything but your prayers". Stride was known to be somewhat religious and I think that conversation went like this:

Stride: Your not Leather Apron are you? (kind of jokingly)
Man: You never know, my dear. (also joking tone)
Stride: well, then I had better say my prayers.
Man: You would say anything but your prayers.

They wander on a bit, perhaps then seen by PC Smith, and a short while later in front of Dutfield yard the man again tries to get Stride into the yard for supposed sex. Again, she will not. The man, after spending considerable time and money with her, gets frustrated and leaves, walks a short while, loses his temper, turns around and walks back towrd her. This is where Schwartz sees him.

He grabs her in a fit of rage-she yells out, "but not very loudly", because she thinks this is just a frustrated punter, Not the ripper, so she is not screaming bloody murder. After Schwartz leaves she acquiesces to the mans desires and enters the yard with him, taking out the caschous.

He attacks her, cuts her throat, but before he can accomplish his true desires, is scared off-- by the noise coming from the club, what just happened with Schwartz and or the arrival of Diemshitz.

Not being able to complete his true desires he heads out looking for a new victim. About this time, a drunk and desperate Eddowes is heading out from the jail.

[lynn cates]

circling back

Hello Abby. Not bad.

My problem begins with his circling back. IF he is drunk at this time, surely he was drunk when spotted by PC Smith and the rest?

One might also wonder about Liz's cooling off period between the BSM assault and their going into the yard.

1. IF she were hesitant before, surely more so later?

2. BSM is taking a terrible risk in both waiting for her to get calm AND wondering whether the nearest constable were coming.

But, most difficult of all, is to get this to harmonise with the later body position.

But, as I said to John, I am entirely open.

Cheers.
LC