JTR compared to JFK

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’d say the chances of there being a conspiracy involving all those that would have had to have been involved, and yet none of them have broken ranks or accidentally let the cat out of the bag, would be millions to one. The last person they’d have chosen to be involved was Oswald.

[APerno]

It would do. You’re a conspiracy theorist. Try reading Reclaiming History by Bugliosi.

Bugliosi was an A-hole.

He completely misinterpreted Manson and got taken down a rabbit hole by the 'children' who used the trial and (an unwitting and confused) Bugliosi to paint their beloved 'Charlie' as someone special (as some kind of supernatural demon with extraordinary powers over people) when in fact all he really was, was a two bit loser driven by revenge and envy.

Bugliosu got played by the "family' and he helped them turn a common thug into a celebrity.

I also had the misfortune of sitting through one of Bugliosi's presentations (back when he was hawking his book) -- I can't speak to the book, but from his lecture I concluded that he didn't necessarily argue there was no conspiracy only that Oswald acted alone.

[tanta07]

I’d say the chances of there being a conspiracy involving all those that would have had to have been involved, and yet none of them have broken ranks or accidentally let the cat out of the bag, would be millions to one. The last person they’d have chosen to be involved was Oswald.

The deathbed revelations of E. Howard Hunt probably fall into that category, if they are to be believed.

Personally, I think Oswald fit the category of "patsy" perfectly; he was a loser, a nobody. And the cherry on top was that he was already known as a loon and a defector. The FBI's initial investigation of the killing basically started with the premise that it was Oswald and only Oswald and worked backwards from there, presumably because everything wrapped up so neatly that way.

Oh lord, did I just go to a JtR forum to argue about the JFK assassination? LOL

[FISHY1118]

About the only person there on the day who didn't shoot JFK, was Oswald...

Thank you,,,, enough said . i think you'd better quit will your still behind herlock .

[FISHY1118]

Edwin Walker assassination attempt

Main article: John F. Kennedy assassination rifle

Lee Harvey Oswald's $29.95 secondhand Carcano rifle, in the US National Archives

In March 1963, Oswald used the alias "A. Hidell" to make a mail-order purchase of a secondhand 6.5 mm caliber Carcano rifle for $29.95.^[79] He also purchased a .38 Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver by the same method.^[80] On April 10, 1963, Oswald attempted to kill retired U.S. Major General Edwin Walker. He fired the Carcano rifle at Walker through a window from less than 100 feet (30 m) away as Walker sat at a desk in his Dallas home. The bullet struck the window-frame and Walker's only injuries were bullet fragments to the forearm.^[81] The United States House Select Committee on Assassinationsstated that the "evidence strongly suggested" that Oswald carried out the shooting.^[82]
Couldnt even hit a target from 30m sitting at a desk, the Carcano rifle was a lemon , a second hand lemon at that .

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It's been proven as much as it can that Oswald acted alone.

There isn't a shred of credible evidence that there was a conspiracy.

There is an abundance of evidence that Kennedy was shot in the back about six inches below the neckline: eyewitness testimony soon after the assassination, eyewitness testimony of the autopsy, FBI reports of the autopsy, an FBI report of the location of the bullet holes in Kennedy's clothing, the official autopsy diagrams, and the official death certificate, signed by Kennedy's personal physician.

If Oswald fired that shot from above, then it could not have gone on to cause the wound in the front of Kennedy's throat, because the throat wound was at a higher level.

Nor could it have gone on to hit Connally.

These considerations alone mean that two more shots must have been fired than was conceded by the Warren Commission.

That means more than one gunman, which means a conspiracy.

That is why Dr Burkley, Kennedy's physician, said during an interview in 1967 that he could not support the Warren Commission's findings.

Dr Burkley was not called to testify before the Warren Commission.

[Fiver]

My money is on the tragically accidental third bullet theory .. irrespective of Oswald's part , and who was involved in the original plan .. truth is , there is much evidence ( ignored by the Warren report ) that the final head shot came from the car following the lead car , albeit accidently as the driver accelerated , Agent Hicky ,whilst stood up and holding on to an automatic AR15 fell back, unfortunately unleashing a bullet or two .. one of which exploded on impact with Kennedys head , and the other hitting the fence on the grassy knol ( hence the illusion of a puff of gun smoke from the grassy knol ) .. Huge F***k up and embarrassment for all involved , hence the following cover up . Case Solved

Mortal Error ... Great book .

moonbegger

It's an interesting theory, but disproven by one of the Altgens photos.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/13018301_web1_AP_685479771488.jpg

JFK's arms are raised to his throat, so clearly this is after the first bullet hit JFK. Several of the Secret Service in the following car are shown looking back towards the Book Depository. One of them is standing in the back seat of that car, he back of his head visible over the right shoulder of Agent Clint Hill. That man is George Hickey, the man the theory says accidentally shot JFK when both cars accelerated.

But Hickey was clearly facing backward so there is no way he could have accidentally fired a shot behind his back to hit JFK.

The Altgens photo also shows that Oliver Stone is lying (again) by placing a shooter in the second floor or the Daltex building.Stone erases the entire fire escape while ignoring that the Altgens photo clearly shows there was no one in that window the way he portrays.

[Fiver]

There is an abundance of evidence that Kennedy was shot in the back about six inches below the neckline: eyewitness testimony soon after the assassination, eyewitness testimony of the autopsy, FBI reports of the autopsy, an FBI report of the location of the bullet holes in Kennedy's clothing, the official autopsy diagrams, and the official death certificate, signed by Kennedy's personal physician.

That is a wildly inaccurate summation of evidence. There certainly were some claims that the bullet struck JFK in the upper back as low as you say. There were other claims the put the bullet near the neckline and this is supported by the doctors who actually performed the autopsy and the bullet holes in JFK's clothing.

The idea that JFK was shot in the back about six inches below the neckline also requires a rifle bullet to barely penetrate the back and then completely disappear. The idea that Connally was struck by a second bullet requires that bullet to curve in midair to miss, JFK, curve again to hit Connally, and be tumbling before it hits Connally.

The Single Bullet Theory is unlikely, but computer modeling of the actual positions of JFK and Connally as well as modern forensics testing with actual Carcano rifles shows that it is possible.

The Two Bullet Theory requires bullets that curve and tumble in midair, then disappear without a trace. It also requires multiple Navy doctors to falsify the autopsy evidence without having any motive to do so.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There certainly were some claims that the bullet struck JFK in the upper back as low as you say.

There were other claims the put the bullet near the neckline and this is supported by the doctors who actually performed the autopsy and the bullet holes in JFK's clothing.

That is not true.

The bullet hole in the shirt was 5 3/4 inches below the top of Kennedy's shirt collar.

The bullet hole in the jacket was 5 3/8 inches below the top of Kennedy's jacket collar.

The back wound was far below the neckline, as confirmed by statements by Secret Service Agent Clint Hill, Dr John Ebersole, FBI agent Robert Frazier, nurse Diana Bowron, Dr George Burkley, Dr Humes, and FBI agents James Sibert and Francis O'Neil.

[Newbie]

Hi all,
I have been revisiting the JFK story over the weekend and concentrating on all the conspiracy, cover-up storys.
To me, it smells of cover-up and right from the top down.
Yet it is no where near or likely to be solved to everyones satisfaction.
JFK was 50 yrs ago...JTR 125 yrs ago, and yet when you compare the two cases, If we cant get to the truth of JFK, then what chance of geting to the truth of JTR.
Just consider how many files,witness statements, film , tv footage and photos available, and compare to whats available with JTR.

Just a thought!

I am inclined to think Oswald worked alone. What sane people would organize a scheme to kill the president involving that guy? Ruby seems like a nut, and it is entirely credible that the Dallas police department would let him wander around unknowingly with a gun - they knew him. Kennedy came from the elite class, and had no radical agenda planned ...so there was no overwhelming need for other elites to kill him, unlike let's say the Gracchi brothers.

Interestingly enough, one woman knew both men: Priscilla Johnson was a staffer to JFK in the senate, and she was a newspaper reporter in Moscow who interviewed Oswald for a few hours while Oswald was trying to defect. She surmised that Oswald, upon learning that Kennedy's motorcade was going to drive by the book depository, felt that it was his destiny to kill Kennedy.

The Kennedy admin was the high water mark for the post W.W.2 U.S..
I think people want to believe that darker, more sinister forces derailed the U.S. from the 'innocent' time of Camelot,
and that a little nobody like Oswald couldn't possibly be the causative agent behind the decline.

[Newbie]

That is not true.

The bullet hole in the shirt was 5 3/4 inches below the top of Kennedy's shirt collar.

The bullet hole in the jacket was 5 3/8 inches below the top of Kennedy's jacket collar.

The back wound was far below the neckline, as confirmed by statements by Secret Service Agent Clint Hill, Dr John Ebersole, FBI agent Robert Frazier, nurse Diana Bowron, Dr George Burkley, Dr Humes, and FBI agents James Sibert and Francis O'Neil.

I've visited the book depository window and the location. It's nearly impossible for a gunman to stand on the grassy knoll and fire away without most people seeing him/her. People saw Oswald (someone) firing from the book depository window. The wound to Kennedy's skull was in the back right, as it should be, for a gunman firing from the book depository window's position.

Here is a youtube video of one of the attending doctors when the dying JFK was brought into parkland memorial hospital.
He was the first person to discover the skull wound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jHWTXIMKx4

[Newbie]

It's been proven as much as it can that Oswald acted alone. There isn't a shred of credible evidence that there was a conspiracy. The amount of people who would have had to be involved make a conspiracy impossible. And if some powerful group wanted Kennedy gone there was no need to kill him. They could have simply released the details of his health and private behavior and he would have been gone.

nice point!

That's the way they take care of things ....it's called hardball politics.
Disgrace powerful opponents and kill the troublemakers from below.

None of the elites would have the balls to assassinate someone like Kennedy.

[Lewis C]

I am inclined to think Oswald worked alone. What sane people would organize a scheme to kill the president involving that guy? Ruby seems like a nut, and it is entirely credible that the Dallas police department would let him wander around unknowingly with a gun - they knew him. Kennedy came from the elite class, and had no radical agenda planned ...so there was no overwhelming need for other elites to kill him, unlike let's say the Gracchi brothers.

Interestingly enough, one woman knew both men: Priscilla Johnson was a staffer to JFK in the senate, and she was a newspaper reporter in Moscow who interviewed Oswald for a few hours while Oswald was trying to defect. She surmised that Oswald, upon learning that Kennedy's motorcade was going to drive by the book depository, felt that it was his destiny to kill Kennedy.

The Kennedy admin was the high water mark for the post W.W.2 U.S..
I think people want to believe that darker, more sinister forces derailed the U.S. from the 'innocent' time of Camelot,
and that a little nobody like Oswald couldn't possibly be the causative agent behind the decline.

At one time I thought there was a conspiracy behind JFK's murder. Now I'm far from certain, but I think that it was most likely done by Oswald acting alone. When I did believe there was a conspiracy, it wasn't that I thought that it wasn't possible for a nobody to kill a president. It was that, when looking at the crime scene and the Zapruder tape, there was an appearance of more than one person shooting at him, and if there had been more than one person shooting at him at the same time, a conspiracy can be presumed. I now know that there are explanations for much of what appears to be more than one shooter. Also, I never thought the elites were behind it. I thought maybe it was Castro, maybe it was the mafia, or maybe it was anti-Castro extremists.

[Michael W Richards]

I recently noticed something that puts the question of how many shots were fired at the president at the forefront. If you look at the Zapruder film in slow motion, youll see the police motorcycles leading the car towards the turnpike exit. As the presidential car disappears behind what I assume is a large sign indicating that exit, Kennedy is unharmed. As the car passes that sign, he is now holding his throat. Jackie leans in to him and Connelly seems to be trying to look into the back seat to see what has happened. He looks around then a few seconds later Kennedy gets the head shot and the governor is seen to suddenly bend forwards, likely the result of being hit himself.

Connelly does not react physically when the shot that hit Kennedy and exited through his throat happens, he reacts a few seconds later when the final shot is taken. What does that mean? It means the Warren Commission determination that the shot that exited Kennedys throat was the same bullet that then hits Connelly....is wrong. The so called magic bullet theory.

So if that was actually another bullet that hits Connelly, the timing means that Oswald was not the only shooter. He wouldnt have had time to shoot 4 bullets, and only 3 casings were found on the 6th floor.

[Michael W Richards]

Id say the chances of there being a conspiracy involving all those that would have had to have been involved, and yet none of them have broken ranks or accidentally let the cat out of the bag, would be millions to one. The last person theyd have chosen to be involved was Oswald.

If they just intended for Oswald to be set up as the killer, then he was a great choice. The Pro Castro links, the CIA personelle links, the defection, the work location...it is possible he was just set up for the fall and someone else shot the gun from the 6th floor. Maybe he was a "patsy". He claimed he was.