What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[lynn cates]

work

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Not to mention not wanting to be in any hurry to return back to squalour and decay."

I can accept that. But meals/lodging?

"What was there to really look forward to?"

Finding work and eating, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

try

Hello Dave. Thanks. I'll see if I can locate the original.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Dave. Thanks. I'll see if I can locate the original.

Cheers.
LC

I think they had different ways for dealing with prostitutes.

One such procedure is still in operation today and is the first part of the chain.

That is that when a female is arrested for soliciting she is first given a caution. This then enables the police to deal with her as a common prostitute if and when she gets arrested a second time.

A caution is not a criminal conviction

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Trevor

Yes but this is described as an actual conviction at The Thames Magistrates Court (Thames Police Court?) on 13th November 1884...I know she'd been widowed only the month before, but her husband had clearly been in ill health for a long while before, and if she'd consequently had to resort to soliciting, it's quite possible surely that she'd already had the LVP equivalent of a caution?

Just a thought

Dave

PS - but accepting a caution does actually start off a formal criminal record does it not?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

Yes but this is described as an actual conviction at The Thames Magistrates Court (Thames Police Court?) on 13th November 1884...I know she'd been widowed only the month before, but her husband had clearly been in ill health for a long while before, and if she'd consequently had to resort to soliciting, it's quite possible surely that she'd already had the LVP equivalent of a caution?

Just a thought

Dave

PS - but accepting a caution does actually start off a formal criminal record does it not?

Yes you are right a record is kept of the caution. But it is not recorded as a criminal conviction.

IN Victorian times a caution for soliciting as likely as not would simply be recorded in a register.

If she were arrested for D & D then the caution for soliciting if she ever had one would not be relevant to the disposal of that offence.

If she had already been cautioned then the next time as per victorian laws she would likely as not been sent to prison

From the Police Codes

Vagrancy Act, 1824 every common prostitute wandering in the public streets or public highways, or in any place of public resort, and behaving in a riotous or indecent manner, is deemed an idle and disorderly person, and liable to one month's imprisonment with hard labour.

Metropolitan Police Act, 1839, every common prostitute, or night-walker, loitering, or being in any thoroughfare, or public place, for the purpose of prostitution or solicitation, to the annoyance of the inhabitants or passengers, is liable to a penalty of 40s.

Town Police Clauses Act, 1847, every common prostitute or night-walker loitering and importuning passengers, for the purpose of prostitution, is subject to a similar fine, or fourteen days' imprisonment in default.

Police should carefully avoid being drawn into conversation with any prostitute, for unfounded charges and suspicions may easily arise therefrom. At the same time they should avoid bullying or unduly harassing these unfortunate persons if their conduct is orderly, and be acquainted with the address and way to any houses or shelters of refuge for them.

[C. F. Leon]

Heal Shelden quotes the 13th November 1884 case in his "Victims" book and says Liz got seven days hard labour

Cheers

Dave

What would 'hard labor' for a woman have been?

[Cogidubnus]

Something with a U in?

Dave

[Trevor Marriott]

What would 'hard labor' for a woman have been?

The same as it is for us men here in casebook. Trying to get Lynn Cates to tell us what his line of thinking is

[Cogidubnus]

I laughed out loud at the aptness in this particular case Trevor, but it has to be said, that unlike either you or I, Lynn is above all else a gentleman!

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Yes you are right a record is kept of the caution. But it is not recorded as a criminal conviction.

IN Victorian times a caution for soliciting as likely as not would simply be recorded in a register.

If she were arrested for D & D then the caution for soliciting if she ever had one would not be relevant to the disposal of that offence.

If she had already been cautioned then the next time as per victorian laws she would likely as not been sent to prison

From the Police Codes

Vagrancy Act, 1824 every common prostitute wandering in the public streets or public highways, or in any place of public resort, and behaving in a riotous or indecent manner, is deemed an idle and disorderly person, and liable to one month's imprisonment with hard labour.

Metropolitan Police Act, 1839, every common prostitute, or night-walker, loitering, or being in any thoroughfare, or public place, for the purpose of prostitution or solicitation, to the annoyance of the inhabitants or passengers, is liable to a penalty of 40s.

Town Police Clauses Act, 1847, every common prostitute or night-walker loitering and importuning passengers, for the purpose of prostitution, is subject to a similar fine, or fourteen days' imprisonment in default.

Police should carefully avoid being drawn into conversation with any prostitute, for unfounded charges and suspicions may easily arise therefrom. At the same time they should avoid bullying or unduly harassing these unfortunate persons if their conduct is orderly, and be acquainted with the address and way to any houses or shelters of refuge for them.

Sorry Trevor, I'd somehow missed this post...I'm grateful for both your confirmation and the additional information

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

warning

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

Something like a warning, then?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

caution

Hello (again) Trevor. If one got a D & D and a caution for solicitation, would that solicitation be noted at court?

"Police should carefully avoid being drawn into conversation with any prostitute, for unfounded charges and suspicions may easily arise therefrom."

Or a tryst. Ask Ed Watkins.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

oakum

Hello CFL.

"What would 'hard labor' for a woman have been?"

Likely oakum picking.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

feeling rejected

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"Trying to get Lynn Cates to tell us what his line of thinking is."

Does this mean I am rejected by the "conspiracy theorists" as well as the "cartel"?

Oh dear, what is a poor centrist to do? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

gentleman

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"it has to be said, that. . . Lynn is above all else a gentleman!"

And that is why my wife is divorcing me. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC