What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[c.d.]

An even simpler explanation is that they were all killed before any type of sexual activity took place.

c.d.

[curious4]

Beg, borrow or steal

Hi Lynn



I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?

Hello all,

I think the chances are that all of the victims would try to beg, borrow or steal money before resorting to prostitution. Mary Kelly asked Hutchinson for a loan. And then there is always the take the money and run option. Polly (and the others) may have obtained money by any of the above options - no need for washing as an explanation, they just didn't have sex.

Cheers,
C4

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?"

I thought I had answered that one? Try post #209.

Cheers.
LC

Lets sort the wheat from the chafe out on this topic of connection.It painful to watch these posts.

The doctors suggest no recent connection, but surely that does not mean that none took place.?

The doctors would have been looking for signs of semen externally and internally. If they had been with anyone and had engaged in vaginal or anal sex then who is to say that the person or persons they went with did not ejaculate outside of the body. On the floor etc. Or even orally for that matter. If a client did not have sufficient money for the full menu. They would have been offered a starter at a reduced rate.

[lynn cates]

good

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Good deal.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?"

I thought I had answered that one? Try post #209.

Yeah, I had seen that reply, thanks. But still wondering why you just picked on them two? No worries.

[lynn cates]

answered

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?"

I thought I had answered that one? Try post #209.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fiction

Hello David. But surely not as grotesque as the case has become with all that ripper rot?

Time to understand that it is fiction.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Jon

I was waiting for your reply to the above post, as I was wondering the same thing. Why were Eddowes, and Stride held as examples of non penetration, when in fact none of the five showed signs of penetration.

It all stemmed fro the following exchange

Hello Ally. Thanks.

"why precisely are you so determined to propose alternate scenarios to the most probable fact: That the women were soliciting when they were murdered."

Quite likely for Polly and Annie. We have their hints in that direction.

Liz, less likely--but possible. It would be more likely had those "sightings" been definitely of different men.

To speak in general terms, does it bother your investigatorial side that Liz and Kate had no signs of having had recent sexual activity?

Cheers.
LC

So it appears as if Mr Cates deemed it a hindrence to the investigation that we should consider that Stride and Eddowes showed no signs of recent connection. Why on earth he should contemplate this notion is beyond me.

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"None of the Whitechapel murder victims had signs of recent sexual activity."

Absolutely. Polly admitted to having doss money 3 times the day of her death. Yet her thighs were clean. Obviously (well, if Oram is to be believed) she had washed. Her new lodging house seemed adult enough.

I was just wondering why you were highlighting Eddowes and Stride only as having no signs of recent sexual activity when none of the Whitechapel murder victims did?

[DVV]

Should be just time to understand that the serial killer we call JtR has killed at least the C5.
I know we are showered day and night with cryptic posts that deny there was ever a serial killer in the East End 1888, but this is grotesque, and will ever be so.

[C. F. Leon]

I'm no expert either in these matters. However, I know full well that prostitutes can indeed be raped, and I'd bet the anus was also checked out by the doctors for signs of penetration. Plastered men tend not to rise to the occasion so to speak, so it's wise perhaps to leave them out of the equation. The thing is none of the canonical five showed signs of penetration, and there are documented cases of serial murder where the act of murder, and mutilation, is sufficient for the perpetrator to "get off". It's not unreasonable to speculate that JTR belonged to this group of killers.

Regards

Observer

That's perfectly possible and I think likely. No evidence for it, though, except modern 'profiling'.

However, no matter what 'Jack's' ultimate intent may have been, he would have had to 'play the game' enough for the victim to have been drinking with him and then 'lift her skirts' with no more than the usual suspicion (and that more likely about being paid).

Do we know how 'the deal' was usually made? Was the hooker paid before the act? Then they pocket the coins, but I would think most would attempt to have SOME sort of security to keep from being robbed (yes, the next class up probably had pimps to take care of such, but what did these lowest level do?)

[RivkahChaya]

OK. Here's the question for the deity, time-traveler, or what have you, without asking for the actual identity of the killer, but trying to get at what we're all wanting to know:

"May I please have a list of all women willfully murdered in London in 1888-9, color-coded, or otherwise grouped, so that the ones killed by the same person, are together? While you're at it, if any of those groups, in order to be complete listings of one person's victims, should include any men, any people killed any other years, or in other places, or even maybe some other species, you could put them down as well."

We really need a list like that before we state definitively who the Ripper's victims were. If Stride was killed by someone else, but the other 4 canonicals are still a group, so to speak, then I think we are still talking about one Ripper. If it turns out that Nichols and Chapman were killed by one person, and Eddowes and Kelly by another, it's my personal feeling that the one who killed the first two women is the original Ripper, because it was at that point that the police had the idea they were looking for a serial killer, even if they didn't use that term.

If Nichols and Chapman were killed by two different people, there's a difficulty. Who is the actual Ripper? It would probably depend on other things, for example, if Nichols were killed by someone who never killed again, while Chapman's killer killed the other canonical victims, and maybe more after that.

We may never know. It's almost easier to go back to calling them the "Whitechapel murders."

On the other hand, things happen. If you don't know about the Bobby Dunbar case, it's about a boy who was lost, them found after being presumed kidnapped, and returned to his parents, in 1912-3, many years before the double helix was even discovered. In 2004, tests on his son's DNA, and his nephew's, revealed that the court that had supposedly solved the mystery when it awarded custody of him to his parents had made a mistake, and instead had done what was essentially a judicial kidnappings from his real mother. Bobby Dunbar (original name, Bruce Anderson), died in 1966, and probably never dreamed there would ever be a way of demonstrating one way or another where he came from.

So who knows what science there may be in 20 years. Or 50. They found Richard III, scoliosis and all, after all.

[Observer]

Hello CFL.

"But apparently the usual method for this style of prostitution was NOT penetration, but the woman using her thighs to get the guy off."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

That's correct, and syphilis, and gonorrhea were unheard of

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Dave.

"Leaving aside the Coroner's somewhat skewed conclusions regarding motive, what's left in dispute about the rings? They were there (whether two or three), they were probably brass or something equally cheap, they were removed, in all probability by the killer and they then disappeared from view. . ."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

The saga of John and Kate.

Hello Barbara. Thanks.

"Yes, but I cannot think of a proper title or first question.

Care to have a go?"

The saga of John and Kate?

Cheers.
LC