A Whip and a Prod

[Michael W Richards]

How did D+S man manage to cut her throat so cleanly, in near darkness?

Who knows, but, she was found in near darkness with her throat nearly cut, so it was possible somehow.
As much as I don't really agree with Micheals theory, when he says hired security, think of it more like a doorman or bouncer, not a security guard. In my experience of bouncers, a throat slashing for a slight is about right.

Ill take that as partial support Al. When I said security I meant someone to control the door and the crowds, door man or bouncer works fine for me. William Morris had orginally been the scheduled speaker that night, Morris was there semi regularly and had a template speech "Why Jews should be Socialists" that he used, William however could have been far more incendiary, and that's why they cancelled him...there were threats made if he spoke.

I suspect any Bouncers, Doorpeople, Security ...whathaveyou, would have been engaged when he was booked and probably could not be cancelled in time when he was cancelled.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

How did D+S man manage to cut her throat so cleanly, in near darkness?

Who knows, but, she was found in near darkness with her throat nearly cut, so it was possible somehow.
As much as I don't really agree with Micheals theory, when he says hired security, think of it more like a doorman or bouncer, not a security guard. In my experience of bouncers, a throat slashing for a slight is about right.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Liz is either cleaning the club or meeting someone socially there ...

So why is she in the lane alone, at 1 am?

... a drunk and surly man there inside the passageway ...

Is this BS Man - now D&S Man?

... I believe someone hired as security for that night, possibly when Willam Morris was originally scheduled to speak ...

They didn't even lock the front door until after midnight.

... he had her back against the wall and was poking her in the chest warning her about her smart mouth, she pushed by him, let one last insult fly as she headed out to wait in the lit street ...

The side door was partially open, as were multiple windows. Why wasn't this altercation overheard?

... and he grabbed her scarf, pulled back on it while twisting it, and while holding her by the scarf, he ran a knife across her exposed throat and let go of the scarf.

So why did the scarf stay very tight?

Berner St may have had 4 gas lamps, over its 120m, but the initial part of the lane was very dark.
At that location, this is Diemschutz recalling his entry to the lane:

It was very dark. There is no light near here, and the darkness is consequently much more intense between these two walls than out in the street.

How did D&S Man manage to cut her throat so cleanly, in near darkness?

That's how she stayed, in that position.

What position?

I think its likely that happened just before the members say they were alerted to the body, and I see no reason why Louis might not be arriving at that same time. Maybe as its happening.

So presumably the pony and cart Fanny Mortimer heard go by at 1:04, was not Louis'?

Women like Liz were seen as expendable, and it wasn't like they were traumatized by what they saw. A dead woman, likely all had seen one before.

In that case, do you suppose they hired D&S Man for the next meeting?

[Michael W Richards]

But wait. Hold everything. There is already a book. I said this on this thread at the top of page 2 post #16. There is a book already accusing Louis D and implicating two others. I don't know the name of the book. Louis D Did It. I don't know. I don't know who wrote it. But yes it happened a couple years ago and was discussed here on Casebook. Did that blow completely past you, Michael? A book accusing Louie D and two others. They were the Ripper killers according to the author.

Why are these Louie D threads re-inventing the wheel? Or is this a discussion of that book? Or, are you the author, Detective Not Blamed for Not? Which is fine with me if you are the author. But we are all in a big metal pipe now that reverberates with the sound of something which is already in a book. And it's getting dark and I want a sandwich.

Paddy

I recall something of that Paddy, though I didn't read it. Im sort of at the end of my interest in Suspect driven books. As for me, I don't believe this was anything but a drunk man reacting to being rejected, or something that mundane, and what Im suggesting the club staff members did isn't to protect one of their own per se, its to cover their own asses. Women like Liz were seen as expendable, and it wasn't like they were traumatized by what they saw. A dead woman, likely all had seen one before. Not a one of them had seen one gutted like Annie Ill wager, but another story there.

For my money this went like....Liz is either cleaning the club or meeting someone socially there, in either case its expected to last the night, a drunk and surly man there inside the passageway, I believe someone hired as security for that night, possibly when Willam Morris was originally scheduled to speak, one of them took Liz for a whore looking for some business, propositioned her, she demurred, he had her back against the wall and was poking her in the chest warning her about her smart mouth, she pushed by him, let one last insult fly as she headed out to wait in the lit street, and he grabbed her scarf, pulled back on it while twisting it, and while holding her by the scarf, he ran a knife across her exposed throat and let go of the scarf. That's how she stayed, in that position. I think its likely that happened just before the members say they were alerted to the body, and I see no reason why Louis might not be arriving at that same time. Maybe as its happening.

So Im not suggesting any club staff member of anyone intimately associated with the club or that meeting need by the guilty party, it could have been a security guard, hanging around while the final members sang upstairs, drinking, smoking in the alley. His work was done for the most part. That's why Liz appearing seemed like perfect timing for him...but the "bitch" acted like she was too good for him, and he got pissed off. One or 2 seconds of poor judgement.

That is all the evidence says this murder was, a brief violent encounter ending in a fatality. Nothing more intended that to shut her up roughly, probably thought he was teaching her a lesson, not killing her.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz turns his pony into the passage leading into the yard. He's keeping to the right-side because he's trying to put the barrow's wheel into the rut or gutter. Only the pony shies to the left (& into the center of the passage) because it doesn't want to step onto the dead woman that is directly in front of the creature.

What would have occurred if the cart's right-side wheel had traveled within, or even close to, the right-side lane rut?...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's worth keeping mind that any transcript of Schwartz' interview with Abberline is lost to history, sadly like so much else. It's Swanson's report to the Home Office that we get the details, but it's a second hand summary of the interview and undoubtedly is missing lots of finer details. The Star interview was conducted after Schwartz left the station, it has to be taken at face value only since The Star was liberal with facts in pursuit of a story. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Yes, we do need to be cautious about The Star.
In the Schwartz article, they are not clear on his English language capacity, so that must remain an open question.

So what about Israel Schwartz himself? How cautious do we need to be of him?
After all, we know very little of him. Who actually is this guy?
What is his age, occupation, and time living in the area?
Who knows Schwartz? Who is the mysterious 'friend' at the interview?
Does the friend attend the IWMES club? Does Schwartz? Did he do so on the evening of Sep 29?

Then there is his apparently rapidly changing story about the events outside the club at around 12:45.
Perhaps we could put this down to exaggeration by The Star, then again, perhaps not.
Was the friend at The Star interview, the same friend as had interpreted at the Abberline interview?
If yes, I wonder what the friend made of the new story, with changed characters and actions?

I have read people arguing over details like; did Pipeman stand in front of #44 Berner, or stay outside The Nelson?
This is kind of hilarious - we don't even know if Pipeman/Knifeman & BS/Tipsy Man exist!
Are these real characters, purely fictional characters, or perhaps a hybrid, based on self-projection?

It is also interesting to consider the parallels in the lives of Diemschutz and Schwartz, on the 29th and up until 1 am of the 30th.

In the morning, Schwartz heads out for the day, leaving behind his wife at their Berner St address.
At 11:30 on the same morning, Diemschutz heads off to the markets for the day, leaving behind his wife at their Berner St address.
At 12:45 the next morning, Schwartz is returning home to what by that stage, is surely his prior address.
Shortly before reaching the old address, he has a close encounter with Jack the Ripper.
A neat 15 minutes later at 1:00, Diemschutz turns into Berner St, and thanks to the clip-clop of heels, just avoids having a close encounter with Jack the Ripper.

Up until that point, the resemblance is uncanny.
Beyond that point, however, things are very different for each man.
Apart from his discovery of a dead woman in the yard, Diemschutz is returning to his wife and home at the club, which by 1 am, still contains a few tens of other people.
Schwartz by contrast, is returning to what by then must surely be a deserted household.
Leaving aside the fact that he ends up running right past it, when fleeing the terrifying man with a clay pipe, we have to wonder why he is returning to a place devoid of both people and possessions, rather than going to the new address to see his wife and get some sleep.
It's not as though he has to stop by for a freshen-up, before going into the city for some jolly now, is it?

[DJA]

He was keeping to the right side because that was where he was going to unload his goods,ie where he resided in the second building.
That is where the pony cart was halted.

[Robert St Devil]

Wanna know how many Criminologists collaborated in compiling that piece of ridiculous junk?

None.

Zilch.

Who would have guessed, DJA, I mean, the evidence seemed so compelling, after all, the Police Illustrated drawings of the 3 men did resemble the general description of the Ripper - man, mustache, middle aged

-------------

NB4N:

Reread this thread from Post #1 but only because I hadn't really been paying attention these past couple of weeks. While I don't agree with your assertion that Diemschutz should be a person of interest, I still think a measure of light has reached my perspective on the matter simply by focusing on the initial aspect of your thread - Diemschutz entry into the yard with his barrow; and, I think your post #88 came close to touching on what I think happened:

Diemschutz turns his pony into the passage leading into the yard. He's keeping to the right-side because he's trying to put the barrow's wheel into the rut or gutter. Only the pony shies to the left (& into the center of the passage) because it doesn't want to step onto the dead woman that is directly in front of the creature. As the barrow is going around Elizabeth Stride's body, Louis Diemschutz leans over the side of the barrow and prods the form with his whip handle. [ IOW Louis doesn't halt the pony; this prodding action is all happening while the pony is walking towards the yard]. Louis halts the pony as the barrow passes the club's side door, jumps down from his barrow and walks back to light a match. The barrow obviously isn't between the side-door and Stride's body because members reported seeing a flow of blood leading to the door; and that wouldn't have been possible if the pony & barrow was "parked" in the way.

The version removes the dramatic of a pony bucking-up or halting from some instinctive response to a dead person. Rather, it takes it from the perspective that the animal just shied around an object that was in its' way.

Also....

Joshua Rogan cited the Morning Advertiser as a source for Diemschutz passing the Harris Tobacco shop. I believe that the Morning Advertiser had a reporter in attendance at this inquest only because they cite the laughter response in the exchange between the coroner and William Marshall in their Oct 6th edition. So, it's easier to claim that this reporter scribed what he directly heard.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

So a few questions:

1. What explains the apparent contradiction? Could he really speak no English at all, or some, as the article initially suggests?
2. What evidence is required to determine, with a high degree of certainty, whether a particular person can or cannot speak a given language?
3. Why was the Star interview held at a police station? Is that where the Abberline interview occurred?
4. If the Star interview occurred right after the Abberline interview, why was Schwartz' story so different the second time?
5. Who was the friend, or at least the best guess as to the friend's identity?

It's worth keeping mind that any transcript of Schwartz' interview with Abberline is lost to history, sadly like so much else. It's Swanson's report to the Home Office that we get the details, but it's a second hand summary of the interview and undoubtedly is missing lots of finer details. The Star interview was conducted after Schwartz left the station, it has to be taken at face value only since The Star was liberal with facts in pursuit of a story. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

[DJA]

Are you talking about Randy Williams and his book SHERLOCK HOLMES AND THE AUTUMN OF TERROR which names Diemschutz, Kozebrodski and Friedman as co-conspirators?

Wanna know how many Criminologists collaborated in compiling that piece of ridiculous junk?

None.

Zilch.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So a few questions:

1. What explains the apparent contradiction? Could he really speak no English at all, or some, as the article initially suggests?
2. What evidence is required to determine, with a high degree of certainty, whether a particular person can or cannot speak a given language?
3. Why was the Star interview held at a police station? Is that where the Abberline interview occurred?
4. If the Star interview occurred right after the Abberline interview, why was Schwartz' story so different the second time?
5. Who was the friend, or at least the best guess as to the friend's identity?

[Joshua Rogan]

Are you sure Schwartz couldn't communicate in English?

Yes.
The same Star interview says, in the same paragraph;
"He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Read it. I'd be careful using Fisherman's drawing. 1) because I think it's copywritten, and 2) are you claiming that the barrow was as wide as those red lines ie. 9ft or 280 cm wide? "The red lines represent a carriage's wheel span and path."

1) I reference the dissertation in the post, and credit both the graphic and some of the dimensions used in the post, to that article, and state the author's name multiple times. So far, I've not had any complaints.

2) Here are the relevant quotes:

Fisherman gives a lane width of 280cm.*

Fisherman approximates the carriage wheel span to be 200-210cm. Let's assume it to be 206cm (the even number makes for whole number division).

The cart is 97cm high, 98cm wide and 226cm long.


* I believe it was actually 300cm (10ft).

More work needs to be done in determining the exact dimensions of the whip used.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

"Moving house" quite possibly involved nothing more than packing two suitcases. Even Kelly's shabby little room was rented as "furnished".

Let's make the very reasonable assumption that 'going out for the day', means Schwartz leaves home some time before midday.
He "kindly" leaves the packing to his wife, which is no bad thing - it's possibly nothing more than two suitcases.

Don't you think, if that were the case though, that Mrs Schwartz would have been well and truly done and dusted, by 12:45 the next morning?
Furthermore, what the hell has Israel being doing all day and well into the night?
If not at work, has he been wondering the streets and drinking in pubs?
Did he go to the meeting at the IWMES that evening, and meet possibly dozens of other young Jews, and share in the camaraderie of the place?

Or is the guy, with evident marriage issues, also a bit of a loner?
Does he have some loose associations with club members, but otherwise exist as an "outsider", and feel like one too?

Why does Pipeman chase him, just because BS Man had called him Lipski?
It's just a 'domestic' that BS Man and the woman are involved in, after all, and the neighborhood is full of Jews.
What's the big deal, and why does he run so far, and past his (possibly old) address in Berner St, which is were he claims to be going in the first place?

In the Star version, why does Knifeman aggressively confront Tipsy Man with knife in hand, simply because TM has pushed a 'low woman'.
Again, why does Schwartz feel so terribly threatened by all this, even after having crossed the road, that he runs away as if his life depends on it?

Last but not least, how does Schwartz, in those brief seconds, on a dimly lit street, in which the movement and orientation of people, probably prevent him from getting a good frontal view of Stride's face, manage to successfully identify her at the mortuary?

[Robert St Devil]

Oh, is that what he's talking about?
I have read reviews of that book, and interviews with the author.

Not only have I not named any of those 3 as murderers, let alone co-conspirators, my arguments against Diemschutz are very different.
For example, see the initial post in this thread.

Read it. I'd be careful using Fisherman's drawing. 1) because I think it's copywritten, and 2) are you claiming that the barrow was as wide as those red lines ie. 9ft or 280 cm wide? "The red lines represent a carriage's wheel span and path."