A Whip and a Prod

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would think that anyone who intends to post and debate here should at the very least be familiar with the vast resources here. Do I see that reflected in some posts...no.

So why do you rarely quote from the vast resources here, yourself?

I think we can allow Spooner some room for error, the other witnesses I quoted were inside just before they were alerted to the situation, clocks would have been readily available. Spooner estimates a walk and a loiter...he could have been off a few minutes.

Spooner reaches the yard from just around the corner.
He discovers the cut throat, not long after arriving, then stands guard over the body for no more than 5 minutes, until Lamb arrives at ~1 am.
Are you seriously suggesting that this activity is compatible with a 12:35 arrival, with 'some room for error'?

A whistle was heard and was interpreted by a member as being a policeman's whistle.

That tells us nothing about the time this occurred.

Eagle also "couldnt be sure" a dead woman was blocking his path as he went into the passageway ...

That doesn't mean we can be sure on his behalf.

... and didn't see Joseph Lave, who by his own statement, was "by the gates" at that time. He of course saw nothing either.

I think you're on much stronger ground here.

Joseph Lave: I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions.

How could he be out on the street from 12:30-1:00, except for that odd bit in the yard, and yet he sees no one suspicious, and possibly no one sees him?
A woman is killed 5' inside the gates and he sees nothing?
What is he doing in the yard at 12:40? Checking the locks?
What about the incident Schwartz reports on, and the shout of 'Lipski!'?
Does he manage to go back inside, just seconds before Diemschutz arrives?
Does Diemschutz see a clock near a tobacco shop, on Commercial Road, and not actually arrive until 1:02 or even 1:03?
Why does Lave need to spend a full half hour outside, just 'to get a breath of fresh air'?
Lave's statement is extremely suspicious!

I think Ill refer you back to your point about interpretations.....

Another point; we have to use reasonable margins of error, when assessing time related comments.

Ill look for it when I get some more time ...

Why do you make claims, and then go looking for the supporting evidence?

... but the fact she saw Goldstein validates that during that time she was at the door anyway.

Yes it does, but only at that time, and the identity of that person is only Goldstein if we choose to believe Wess.
Apparently Walter Dew didn't!

I have no problem with Israel actually having been there, Its possible he may well have dropped in for some of the meeting, and he may even have seen Liz Stride and someone inside the gates as he was leaving....I don't believe a word of the translated version of events on the street though. I do believe its likely he did Wess a favour.

Or himself.
Glad to see you don't believe any of that BS/Pipe Man nonsense.

For Socialist Jews thought by the neighborhood and the local police a Anarchists...(one definition of the word is Terrorist)..., a murder on their property with only a member as the most likely culprit would be devastating. On their club and others in the city. And likely on local Immigrant Jews in general. Israel Schwartz tries to remove that risk Sunday night, just like I believe George Hutchinsons statement was to make a lurking Wideawake man a friend of the victim, instead of a likely accomplice of a killer. Statements given for purposes unrelated to solving any murders.

What's your best evidence that the club would have come under intense scrutiny (or worse), had it not been for the 'Lipski' incident?
Was it really just one word that saved them?
What about the handy little Miracle at Mitre Square?

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, heres my take..

Maybe they make errors of interpretation, but highly unlikely they haven't read them.

I would think that anyone who intends to post and debate here should at the very least be familiar with the vast resources here. Do I see that reflected in some posts...no.

Has it not occurred to you that 'twenty-five minutes to one o'clock' is not logical, and was either misspoken or misheard by the typist?

I think we can allow Spooner some room for error, the other witnesses I quoted were inside just before they were alerted to the situation, clocks would have been readily available. Spooner estimates a walk and a loiter...he could have been off a few minutes.

PC Lamb blew his whistle for assistance after checking for a pulse. This was after 'shortly before one o'clock' - by his own reckoning.
Which PC blew a whistle at around 12:45?

A whistle was heard and was interpreted by a member as being a policeman's whistle.

Gillen informed Eagle of the dead body in the yard.
Eagle estimated the discovery time to be 1 am.

Eagle also "couldnt be sure" a dead woman was blocking his path as he went into the passageway, and didn't see Joseph Lave, who by his own statement, was "by the gates" at that time. He of course saw nothing either.

How carefully are you reading these statements?

I think Ill refer you back to your point about interpretations.....

Can you show me a quote of Fanny stating she stood outside continuously, from 12:50 to 1:00?

Ill look for it when I get some more time, but the fact she saw Goldstein validates that during that time she was at the door anyway.

In any way? Are you saying Schwartz was never near the crime scene, that night?

I have no problem with Israel actually having been there, Its possible he may well have dropped in for some of the meeting, and he may even have seen Liz Stride and someone inside the gates as he was leaving....I don't believe a word of the translated version of events on the street though. I do believe its likely he did Wess a favour.

For Socialist Jews thought by the neighborhood and the local police a Anarchists...(one definition of the word is Terrorist)..., a murder on their property with only a member as the most likely culprit would be devastating. On their club and others in the city. And likely on local Immigrant Jews in general. Israel Schwartz tries to remove that risk Sunday night, just like I believe George Hutchinsons statement was to make a lurking Wideawake man a friend of the victim, instead of a likely accomplice of a killer. Statements given for purposes unrelated to solving any murders.

[DJA]

[NotBlamedForNothing]

[DJA]

Spock the Ripper?

A Wolfe in the Fold

Understanding requires a bit of effort by clicking on the Wikipedia link, looking at the pictures and doing some reading.

When one understands how the arteries are plumbed together, it starts to make sense.

Cheers buddy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I cant keep posting things that are readily available on this very site to show the errors people make, maybe they make the errors because they haven't read them in the first place.

Maybe they make errors of interpretation, but highly unlikely they haven't read them.

Spooner, Heshburg. Issac K have their remarks here under Witnesses in the files....Spooner..."about 25 to 1", Heshburg.." about 20 minutes to 1", Issac K..."about 20 minutes to 1", Gillen is referred to by another witness at around 12:40, Fanny stated that she was at her door..."nearly the whole time between half past 12 and 1am." We also know she stood there continuously within that half hour from 12:50 until 1.

Spooner: On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman.
Spooner: I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard.

Has it not occurred to you that 'twenty-five minutes to one o'clock' is not logical, and was either misspoken or misheard by the typist?

Hoshberg: Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter.

PC Lamb blew his whistle for assistance after checking for a pulse. This was after 'shortly before one o'clock' - by his own reckoning.
Which PC blew a whistle at around 12:45?

Gillen informed Eagle of the dead body in the yard.
Eagle estimated the discovery time to be 1 am.

Eagle: I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one.
Eagle: I had been there twenty minutes when a member named Gidleman came upstairs, and said "there is a woman dead in the yard."

How carefully are you reading these statements?

Can you show me a quote of Fanny stating she stood outside continuously, from 12:50 to 1:00?

I don't use Israel Schwartzs statement in any way when investigating this case, if you like to use his scurrying away part, be my guest. I do not use any of it.

In any way? Are you saying Schwartz was never near the crime scene, that night?

[Robert St Devil]

Dave, there comes a point when we have to push our seat away from the children’s table and say, “No more chicken tenders & mac for me, Ma!” I’ve overlooked Nothing’s indiscretion of NOT citing the periodicals and dates for the quotes & statements that this member is sourcing; after all, it would-be-kinda good to know these sorts-of-things so that we’re not debating a citing from Golden Wok’s Chinese Menu & Weekly Advertiser [London] circa 1888. And far be it from me to ever again load up the patrol-cruiser, flip on the sound-switch for the “nee norr nee norr” siren, and divvy out Board-citations for unwritten member policies.

However…

This following passage by Nothing does not sit-right with me:

We also know that the bonnet was just a few inches from the head, and face was no more than 6" from the wall.
She must have been incapacitated, before being lowered to the ground.
She must also have been lowered carefully, because she had no injuries attributable to falling, the bonnet is right next to her head, and (somehow), the feet end up in the sub 5" gap between gate and wall.

We also learn from Lamb that (not long after 1 am), blood flow has reduced to a trickle, the stream has almost reached the door, and the blood nearest the throat has congealed.
Liz Stride was 5'5" tall. In the position she was found, she would only be about 4' from head to toe, and definitely no more than 4½'.
As each gate was 4½ wide, we can determine that her head was no more than 9' from the gateway (threshold of footpath to yard).
The door was 18' from the gateway, meaning that the bloodstream is approaching 9', just after 1 am.

Consider:
1. I was the member who had brought up the aspect of the bonnet not-but-more than a few pages ago.
2. You had just brought up the aspect of her body being brought in to 4 feet.
3. I brought up the aspect – questioning the calculations, really – of whether 2 quarts of blood could have bled out to the doorway if the murder had occurred at 1 am as proposed in The Interruption theory.

So… to have Nothing flip-about a few posts later and lecture me on these points in the context of as-if these aspects had been created of his or her own design brings an onslaught of “D” words to mind:

demented, delusional, disturbing, disgusting,…

Hey, the Board is open-source freeware with a general sharing of unprotected ideas. And I’d never lay claim that my own thoughts-on-the-matter are entirely novel; considering that, my tag line was once “There’s nothing new here, only the unexplored”, which was a response to realizing that many of my own revelations had actually been accomplished on the Board a decade prior.

But the context in which Nothing wrote that passage still sits-wrong with me.

As for the dung-heap found in Dutfield Yard…

I think it’s a piled compilation of the inanities that Nothing has written on this thread so far as the past, present & future can see, such as “begging the questions out of other members” or “creating a conclusive narrative based solely on anomalies” or “assumptively dismissing alternative counter-points”.

I’m well aware that I muddied my own avatar on this Board, I have the teeth-points in my backside to prove it… but that took a few years to accomplish. The fact that Nothing has achieved that within one-month is nearly outstanding & salute-able.

All emphasis my own

[Michael W Richards]

I cant keep posting things that are readily available on this very site to show the errors people make, maybe they make the errors because they haven't read them in the first place.

Spooner, Heshburg. Issac K have their remarks here under Witnesses in the files....Spooner..."about 25 to 1", Heshburg.." about 20 minutes to 1", Issac K..."about 20 minutes to 1", Gillen is referred to by another witness at around 12:40, Fanny stated that she was at her door..."nearly the whole time between half past 12 and 1am." We also know she stood there continuously within that half hour from 12:50 until 1.

Louis says he arrived precisely at 1...the witnesses above disagree by at least 15 minutes.

I don't use Israel Schwartzs statement in any way when investigating this case, if you like to use his scurrying away part, be my guest. I do not use any of it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

She said she was at her door "nearly the whole time", "off and on" from half past until 1, and she stated that she was at her door from about 10 minutes to 1 and 1am.

That's wrong.

Fanny Mortimer: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house ...

No 10 minutes.
No pony and cart.

Yes nearly all of 30 minutes.
Yes commotion.

Isaac Kozebrodski stated he was sent for help around 12:40, Gillen and Heschberg stated they were by the body around 12:40-12:45, and Edward Spooned also gave that same approximate time.

I thought Kozebrodski claimed he was informed by Diemschutz at 12:40 - he went for help after seeing the body.
I don't agree with Gillen and Spooner being that early. Do you have quotes to support?

Israel himself? Why would he then come forward to place himself there? Why would he run when he could have walked away?

Are you asking me why someone who ran away from a murder scene might come forward as a witness?

And of course the most important question...where is there any proof that Israel Schwartz was really there and actually saw what he claimed?

He came forward as a witness, either because he was one, or because he is Jack the Ripper, and understandably doesn't want anyone to know that.

He did not see what he claimed - BS Man and Pipeman are the products of a psychotic mind.

Israel is not important here...nor is Mary Malcom, at the Inquest. But both are given time.

It amuses me that you keep telling us about all these witness times contradicting Diemschutz, and you know that, by his own admission, Schwartz runs away from near #40, just after 12:45, but you never put 2 and 2 together.

[Michael W Richards]

Actually, Fanny was at her door almost the whole time, from 12:30 to 1:00, just like she said she was.
Prove me wrong …

She said she was at her door "nearly the whole time", "off and on" from half past until 1, and she stated that she was at her door from about 10 minutes to 1 and 1am.

Could you provide an actual list of names and times?
Then anyone could challenge any specific time, if they wanted to.

Isaac Kozebrodski stated he was sent for help around 12:40, Gillen and Heschberg stated they were by the body around 12:40-12:45, and Edward Spooned also gave that same approximate time.

What about that guy who ran helter-skelter from the vicinity of the gates at 12:45-ish - maybe he had something to do with it? No?

Israel himself? Why would he then come forward to place himself there? Why would he run when he could have walked away? And of course the most important question...where is there any proof that Israel Schwartz was really there and actually saw what he claimed?

Israel is not important here...nor is Mary Malcom, at the Inquest. But both are given time.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hopefully this will show how Jack controlled Stride and explain the pressure marks under the collar bones.

Spock the Ripper?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

...but he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1am. Fanny is at her door continuously during that 10 minute span.

Actually, Fanny was at her door almost the whole time, from 12:30 to 1:00, just like she said she was.
Prove me wrong ...

Problem is that Louis's account is in the minority when stories of his arrival time are counted, actually his is a singular account, 4 people say he was there at 12:45 and Fanny didn't see anyone arrive at or before 1.....from 12:50 until 1.

Could you provide an actual list of names and times?
Then anyone could challenge any specific time, if they wanted to.

Louis pulls in, 12:42-12:45 ish, the guy walks past the pony as it pulls in, it shies, and he heads out in the opposite direction.

What about that guy who ran helter-skelter from the vicinity of the gates at 12:45-ish - maybe he had something to do with it? No?

[Michael W Richards]

Liz is not seen on the street after 12:35, she is almost certainly in the passageway, so how come Eagle and Lave seen no-one?

[Michael W Richards]

Sheffield Weekly Telegraph
Saturday 3 November 1888
Slumming in Whitechapel | By a Protected Female | II
By this time we have got to a building which Mr. B_____ [the officer assigned to protect the female reporter as she “slums” the Whitechapel murder sites prior to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly] informs me is the club rendered notorious by being so near the scene of the Berners street tragedy,… Next to the club is a pair of high wooden gates which open inwards into the stable yard. We go inside, first taking a hasty glance behind the gates to see if anyone is lurking there, for there is plenty of room for a hiding place.

** This article only offers a possibility for where her murderer may have hidden if we are working within the bounds of The Interruption theory. As is generally stated, her body wasn’t far off from the gate, and there could have been an opportune chance for the murderer to hide behind the gate before Louis Diemschutz, pony & barrow passed by him. I wouldn’t believe that he exited the passageway [stepping out of the gloom, so to speak] into the yard as it seems, by accounts given, that there was more light in that area [from the windows of the club, the side-door, the cottages] and there exists the possibility that Diemschutz may have noticed him. Again, that’s just speculation based on The Interruption theory and the described scene of Dutfield Yard.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I’m failing to understand why you don’t believe that there was sufficient room in the yard to accommodate this mass of people with pony & barrow. Based on the diagram, it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

The Interruption Theory is just for the jolly Robert, there is nothing in any physical evidence that any action was not complete unto itself, but I wanted to mention that a killer could have either remained onsite and blended in, dumping a knife in the soapy dishwater in the kitchen, or he could have left the scene...but he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1am. Fanny is at her door continuously during that 10 minute span. She sees only Goldstein at around 12:55. So the killer left when she went in, or before she stood there during her "vigil". If after she goes in, then the killer is there when Eagle arrives and Lave is still standing there, and when Louis says he arrived. Problem is that Louis's account is in the minority when stories of his arrival time are counted, actually his is a singular account, 4 people say he was there at 12:45 and Fanny didn't see anyone arrive at or before 1.....from 12:50 until 1.

If he leaves before Fannys vigil, its entirely possible he cuts her and just walks away. Louis is just arriving. And Eagle and Lave would have moved on from that location. Around 12:40-12:42. Only the young couple would have seen him. Louis pulls in, 12:42-12:45 ish, the guy walks past the pony as it pulls in, it shies, and he heads out in the opposite direction. Towards Commercial. Louis finds the woman, calls for help, they gather by the body, some men go out for help, Spooner sees them. What 12:45-46?

Four witnesses add credence to that scenario.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hopefully this will show how Jack controlled Stride and explain the pressure marks under the collar bones.

Depends what you mean by 'controlled'.
Does it mean pushed up against a wall?
It certainly wouldn't be a good way of keeping her quiet - on the contrary, she would be in a lot of pain and be making plenty of noise.
What about the marks over the shoulders?
What about this:

Phillips: ... there was an abrasion of the skin, about an inch and a quarter in diameter, under the right clavicle.

A 1¼" abrasion under the right clavicle? How did that get there?

Phillips: Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

This sentence is a bit odd. I don't think it was quite what he said. This is my 'edit':

Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect, and under the colar bones, from in front of chest, there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

The 'front aspect' refers to the shoulder marks, so her left shoulder has the stronger marking.
The 'from in front of chest' refers to the same frontal aspect, but with the respect to the colar bones.
It should really be two sentences.

Anyway, we have a total of 5 marks to account for. How did they all get there?

Then we move onto your theory of strangulation, which has to compete with this:

[Coroner] What was the cause of death? -
[Phillips] Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

Also this:

[Coroner] There were no marks of gagging, no bruises on the face, and no trace of any anaesthetic or narcotic in the stomach; while the presence of the cachous in her hand showed that she did not make use of it in self-defence.

Then there is this little annoyance:

Phillips: Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.

Was the mud on the left side of face, or on the face, in general?
How did it get there?