A Whip and a Prod

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Me: Why would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or to lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow remaining very tight against the neck, once released?

Because it was also twisted. Like when tightening is done on something that is tied at both ends.

MWR: Im looking for the reference that the scarf was twisted, although Im not certain it will be distinguishable from the twisted position of the bow.

[Michael W Richards]

"I should say that as the woman had held sweets in her left hand that her head was dragged back by means of a silk handkerchief she wore round her neck, and her throat was then cut."

Dr Blackwell, Daily News, Oct 1st

Im looking for the reference that the scarf was twisted, although Im not certain it will be distinguishable from the twisted position of the bow. Note that Blackwell suggests she was pulled "back" by the scarf, again in a manner like I suggested earlier.

[DJA]

Crikey.

Bottom lip,cachous ...... she is a bleeder. Genetic condition.

Like Eddowes' eyes ..... different disease named Xanthelasma.

Too many people consider research to be reading others garbage and adding their own.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We have a blood volume of ~ 5 liters/5 quarts.
About 2 quarts of Strides flowed towards the door.That might or might not include a pound/half quart of clot.
That is a lot of blood.
Doubt there was more elsewhere.

What do you make of this?...

[Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth?
[Phillips] Yes. The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
[Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
[Phillips] I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

Transplanted, from the original flow from the neck?
An unusual flow of blow, considering the state of the body?

Stride's neck was cut below the scarf.

Yes. The scarf was right up under the chin.
Neither pulling back on the scarf from behind, nor pulling it upwards once the victim is in a horizontal position (on the ground), achieves this.
It requires someone to deliberately tie the scarf very tightly and high on the neck, which uses up two of Jake's three hands.

[DJA]

Only Blackwell suggests that the scarf, actually a silk handkerchief ,was "probably" used to pull Stride backwards.

Phillips actually notes there was no sign of gagging.

Nobody mentions the hanky being twisted.

[Michael W Richards]

On the scarf, it was most certainly used by her killer to get control of Liz. Don't believe that is in evidence in any other killing of women wearing scarves during this period in time. Annies wasnt twisted or tightened, Kates wasn't. I believe it appears in this case because he grabbed it from behind to stop her from walking away. Do any other Ripper victims appear as if they had a chance to walk away?

[Michael W Richards]

What about this fact from Dr Blackwell?

"There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf which was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed as if by a sharp knife."

My impression by his post Josh was that he was contending the scarfs' cut didn't match the cut on the throat, and it didn't cut the cloth. Perhaps I was in error...kinda hard to tell sometimes what is intended as slights and what is being helpful. The latter is much rarer than the first.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think its best to follow some of your posts with just the actual facts. So nothing is misrepresented.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

What about this fact from Dr Blackwell?

"There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf which was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed as if by a sharp knife."

[Michael W Richards]

Let me rephrase the question properly ...

Why would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or to lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow remaining very tight against the neck, once released?

When Blackwell is examining her, the scarf is still tight.

Because it was also twisted. Like when tightening is done on something that is tied at both ends.

[Michael W Richards]

Stride's neck was cut below the scarf.

"

There was a clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards"

"

Deceased had a silk handkerchief round her neck, and it appeared to be slightly torn. I have since ascertained it was cut. This corresponded with the right angle of the jaw

neck, from left to right, there is a clean cut incision six inches in length; incision commencing two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw."
"
" The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat."

I think its best to follow some of your posts with just the actual facts. So nothing is misrepresented.

[DJA]

Stride's neck was cut below the scarf.

[DJA]

We have a blood volume of ~ 5 liters/5 quarts.
About 2 quarts of Strides flowed towards the door.That might or might not include a pound/half quart of clot.
That is a lot of blood.
Doubt there was more elsewhere.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Let me rephrase the question properly ...

Why would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or to lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow remaining very tight against the neck, once released?

Blackwell: The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was [present tense] turned to the left and pulled very tight.

When Blackwell is examining her, the scarf is still tight.

[Michael W Richards]

My IQ is 75.

How would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow becoming very tight, against the neck?

If her scarf was grabbed from behind, and twisted, it would choke her, and allow the person who is twisting and tightening the scarf to manipulate her by pulling on it. She is walking away, or trying to, facing the street, he grabs the scarf from behind, twists it, and pulls on it, she is off balance and trying to find footing when he just runs the knife under her chin, across the tightened scarf, leaving nicks on the scarf that correspond to the cut to her throat. He then just lets go of the scarf. Done. No need for spray, because he cuts her while her throat is constricted and so are the vessels, and then lets go of the scarf immediately thereafter. No spray. He has applied pressure on that scarf until he drops her. Clenched fist. Legs curl in towards the body, on her side. 2 seconds, cut while falling. Both things were said by Blackwell.

I think she felt threatened and went to leave, that's why her foot is oriented towards the street almost touching the gate, not the passageway. She was facing the entrance and was pulled back from it by the scarf.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Where,in a cobblestoned yard,is the muddy ground that requires raking over?

Pickup Joss Reagan's Dutfield's Yard video here (link should start at 3:09) ...

At 3:13, you can see a depression in the yard were a lot of dirt has accumulated.
That's my best guess, if we know for a fact that the entire exposed yard is cobblestoned.
I just don't think the area near the gates would look like that, so her muddy left side has to be explained otherwise.
I really can't think of anything else, and I have had some weird thoughts - like Louis carting the body around the block.
Having said all that, if it actually is muddy where she is laid down, fine - everything else still works, but I do doubt it would be muddy enough though.

How do you place the cachous between thumb and forefinger of a dead person in such a manner that they remain there?

Me: Once laid down at the gates, cachous is placed in left hand, and possibly grapes are temporarily placed in right hand.

It's a way of making it look like she was cut were she lay.