A Whip and a Prod

[DustyBones]

Can someone refresh my memory... Why was Israel on Berner St. that night? Didn't he recently move to or away from that neighborhood?

[Michael W Richards]

Except Israel's statement to the police implicated a Jewish co-conspirator/lookout when he states that Lipski was shouted to pipeman, and by implication, a Jewish murderer as well. His original testimony, therefore, at best makes the club of interest because of its Jewish membership, and at worst, would make the club a focus for the same reason. Israel Schwartz's testimony, whether one believes it or not, directly contradicts the idea that the club set up his testimony to direct attention to a gentile perpetrator. It was the police who worked out that Israel Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to "pipeman" was probably incorrect and that it was probably directed at Israel himself. So while that reinterpretation may jive with the conspiracy theory, it is Israel's original testimony itself that must be viewed as the product of the conspiracy, and his original statement refutes his being part of it because it goes against the whole suggested purpose of the conspiracy in the first place. That part just doesn't work at all.

- Jeff

Jeff,

I believe it was Abberline who connected the call out with anti Semitic overtures, but rather than what you suggest above, it was anti Jew sentiments directed at Schwartz, or in a mocking fashion to a compatriot across the street..which would make him a like minded person, that were believed to be the nature of "Lipski". One needs only to see the reaction to the GSG to know the Police were very aware how volatile an anti Jew neighborhood could be.

Israels story in the way he told it was to accomplish 2 things, a strong likelihood that the murderer was never on club property that night, and that he was also a jew hater. Context...in September the investigation took 2 segments of the population and fixated on them...medically trained people, and local Jewish Immigrants. This happened weeks into that kind of door to door searching. Not only did the club want to shuffle off suspicions, it wanted to downplay any idea that Jews were involved.

Israel in his story felt personally threatened, that's not going to be the case with your suggested interpretation. A derogatory anti-Semitic call from one co-conspirator is suggesting we have a "Lipski" here. A proper name associated with someone who had a 6 month pregnant woman drink acid.

[JeffHamm]

Hi NBFN,

To address your questions...

My opinion about what happened there that night isn't shared by many, but Im comfortable with it anyway.

Someone at that club killed Liz, likely in a momentary fit of anger, and the senior club members who discover this...knowing that the general public saw them as anarchists and likely terrorists, knew that the murder would cause the club to be closed, and that each member there would be investigated. They chose to frame their stories in a way that makes someone from the club as the murderer less likely. Israel was the cherry on top Sunday night...appropriate metaphor, since it was "Sundae". The GSG was written by Kates murderer and the apron section and the message were left there specifically because the Model Homes were almost exclusively Immigrant Jew tenants, and I believe at least one known member of the Berner club lived there.

That's my "conspiracy theory" wild idea. They just tried to save their asses from persecution. Damage control.

Problem is, aside from creating an alternate truth... if Im correct, is that Liz Stride just bled to death while they decided what to do.

Except Israel's statement to the police implicated a Jewish co-conspirator/lookout when he states that Lipski was shouted to pipeman, and by implication, a Jewish murderer as well. His original testimony, therefore, at best makes the club of interest because of its Jewish membership, and at worst, would make the club a focus for the same reason. Israel Schwartz's testimony, whether one believes it or not, directly contradicts the idea that the club set up his testimony to direct attention to a gentile perpetrator. It was the police who worked out that Israel Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to "pipeman" was probably incorrect and that it was probably directed at Israel himself. So while that reinterpretation may jive with the conspiracy theory, it is Israel's original testimony itself that must be viewed as the product of the conspiracy, and his original statement refutes his being part of it because it goes against the whole suggested purpose of the conspiracy in the first place. That part just doesn't work at all.

- Jeff

[DJA]

Defective more like it

Congratulations, nonetheless!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

They say I'm a detective now ha ha

[DJA]

Just as well or they would have been known as The They Came From Denton High Club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As Saturday night,Sunday morning has now become Sundae night ......


Rocky Horror Time Warp - YouTube

Dave,
I think it's fair to say that not all the club members were riffraff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Dr Phillips: Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

So unless the gutter was full of dirt (or even if it were), what could possibly explain this?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's not a bad idea, but it very much relies on Packer not having read anything about the murders before then. All the details of both murders were published well before his identification atempt, so if he had read them it proves nothing about his honesty. Upon finding himself being unexpectedly taken to the City mortuary and confonted by a corpse with a horribly mutilated face, he wouldn't need to be a genius to work out that this wasn't the Berner Street victim, who'd escaped mutilation (presumably because Louis had interrupted himself).

So did Packer make up the grape story, and pretend (successfully) to not know what either victim looked like?
That alone would seem more far fetched than a cosy little deal between the club hierarchy, and one of the fairly respectable neighbours.

[Joshua Rogan]

Would the hair be removed, prior to the removal of the scalp, at the autopsy?
As for the "matting", could that be the result of long, wet hair, that rarely gets combed?
Wasn't she after a clothes brush, before going out that evening?
Perhaps she just lacked a few essentials, including brushes and combs.
Oh, and a toothbrush!

She had more than one comb on her - one and a bit, in fact. No toothbrush though. And yes, she did try to borrow a clothes brush earlier, but this was more likely to be to remove whitewash than the mud, which is entirely consistent with lying in a wet muddy passageway.
From Dr Phillips' evidence;

" I found in the pocket of the underskirt of the deceased a key, as of a padlock, a small piece of lead pencil, a comb, a broken piece of comb, a metal spoon, half a dozen large and one small button, a hook, as if off a dress, a piece of muslin, and one or two small pieces of paper. Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

[Joshua Rogan]

"With a view of testing the accuracy and honesty of Packer’s testimony, the detectives obtained an order to view the body of the woman murdered in Mitre Square, and took Packer to see it, leaving him under the impression that they were taking him to see the Berner Street victim. On seeing the body he at once declared that it was not the woman for whom the grapes had been bought, and not a bit like her."

That last bit is brilliant!

It's not a bad idea, but it very much relies on Packer not having read anything about the murders before then. All the details of both murders were published well before his identification atempt, so if he had read them it proves nothing about his honesty. Upon finding himself being unexpectedly taken to the City mortuary and confonted by a corpse with a horribly mutilated face, he wouldn't need to be a genius to work out that this wasn't the Berner Street victim, who'd escaped mutilation (presumably because Louis had interrupted himself).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

On the last bit, people didn't brush their teeth..most used paste or powders on cloth to clean them.

Yes, but it was a just a joking reference to the cachous

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think cd that NBFN is concerned about the grapes in this instance, more than who killed her. There are 3 witnesses that saw them, we have to accept those accounts …but we are not obliged to accept it as fact. He seems to think someone removed the grapes before Blackwell got there, because he didn't note them.

I will admit that when a number of witnesses see the same thing one has to wonder whether they were all wrong, or all correct.

A third possibility is; correct about what they saw, but not when they saw it, and who they saw doing it

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

The club had 75-80 members, and some of them were quite interesting characters.
They were all dedicated Socialists (pretty much a requirement of membership).
Most of them were Jewish, not all (that was not a requirement), and relations with the conservative local Jewish community, were not good.
Possibly "Lipski!" was a reference to an orthodox Jew, used as a slur - spoken by a radical Jew.

I don't see anything wrong with supposing that the club may have slipped Fanny some coin to keep her onside.
What else would explain her inability to notice post-12:30 arrivals to the club, Stride sitting with man served by Packer, and of course the whole Schwartz incident?
She seems to be oddly familiar with Mr & Mrs Diemschutz, and her statements closely match Louis' (arrival time and grapes).
It's all so suspicious.

To answer your question...

Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

The club wanted radical socio-political change, and decided to draw attention to the conditions in the East End, and embarrass the establishment in the process.
It could be argued they succeeded spectacularly.

[DJA]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

As Saturday night,Sunday morning has now become Sundae night ......


Rocky Horror Time Warp - YouTube