A Whip and a Prod

[JeffHamm]

Anderson said a great many things that he "only thought he knew".

Find me a person for whom that does not apply, and I'll show you a chronic liar.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Michael,
in the 2nd quote, Fanny is in the yard before 1:04!

Please allow your mind to see the anomalies between the two scenarios (and different scenarios, they certainly are).

I believe there was talk of another shiny black bag that night, but I will agree at least for now, that her claim to have seen Leon Goldstein, was subsequently verified.
However, the verification of the Goldstein sighting does not mean that one, two, three or any other number of things she claims to have seen and/or heard, were also verified - it is not a general purpose claim verifier.

Also, if her 10 minute vigil starts at 12:45, and 4 minutes after that period, she hears the pony and cart, how can the time then be 1:04?

[Michael W Richards]

Your quote above includes the Daily News interview with Fanny, and it suggests she heard a cart and horse about 4 minutes after 1am, she claimed she was at her door continuously from about 10 to 1 until 1am. She saw Goldstein pass at 12:55, and that verifies her claim. She was there. She didn't see Louis or cart and horse arrive, nor did she hear one until about 1:04. We do not know which direction the cart and horse were travelling.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yet she heard a cart and horse while inside after 1am, and she didn't see or hear anything on the streets coming from either direction from 12:50 to1am.

Mrs Mortimer heard a pony and cart go by her place at No 36, at about 1 am ...

Daily News (Oct 1): A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Immediately after shortly before 12:45, is close enough to 12:45.
Add 10 minutes standing time at the her doorstep, brings us to 12:55
Four minutes after that brings us to 12:59.
That is obviously very close to Louis' claim to see the clock (whichever one it was) at exactly 1:00, when approaching No 40.

So what are we to make of this?...

Mrs Mortimer: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.
...
The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

So let's say "just after one o'clock" means 1:02.
To put it bluntly, we now have a colossal problem set:

• No pony and cart are heard going by, at ~1:00, and therefore ...
• There are zero independent witnesses - either audio/visual or audio-only, of Diemschutz' pony and cart, during the entire night
• At precisely the time we would expect Louis to be returning to the body, having gone inside the club for help, we find instead that there is already a group of people around the body, large enough to be causing a commotion, and which now includes Mrs Mortimer herself

How can this be occurring immediately after 1.02?

Not only is the second quote not compatible with the first, it's actually far more serious than that ...

The second scenario is not compatible with the notion that Diemschutz' pony and cart were in the Dutfield's Yard lane, at any time from 1 am

[Michael W Richards]

Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.

- Jeff

Anderson said a great many things that he "only thought he knew".

[Michael W Richards]

I'll stick with the Telegraph.
Done to death and the more knowledgeable Ripperologists,especially on the Forum, seem to have unraveled the truth.

My post should have read 22 Ellen Street.
Suspect the alleged move was fabricated by a lazy journalist.

PS. Seriously doubt that Schwartz and Wess were in Paris prior to 1888,let alone in each others company.

It would seem that would put you at odds with the truth then, I have no reason to doubt the source myself.

As for any truths being revealed here, I haven't seen any conclusions to explain these murders that make much sense or can stand up to scrutiny, so I think the secret is still safe.

Im also pretty sure the truth isn't as elaborate as some would have it. The mundane hasn't yet been vetted properly.

[JeffHamm]

>> That bolded statement seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but we know he did not. <<

Oddly, Anderson said the same thing the day before.

Oh, do you have a source for that? I've not spotted Anderson's statement on this before.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

>> That bolded statement seems to indicate that Schwartz testified at the inquest, but we know he did not. <<

Oddly, Anderson said the same thing the day before.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The Ellen St address comes from Inspector Swanson's report to the home office. I think it actually says Helen St, Backchurch Lane. So another example of slightly mismatched details.

[DJA]

Although the Telegraph reported Louis as saying "I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street", the Daily News says "I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road", with the Morning Advertiser even going as far as saying "I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Harris' shop was at 84 on the NE corner. There was another tobacco shop at no.80, next door to the shop on the NW corner. So therefore, if correct, Louis did indeed pass Fanny at no.36 before entering the club gateway. It seems possible to me that the confusion may have arisen if Louis had actually said "'baccy shop" rather than "baker's shop".



According to his Star interview, he was moving from Berner St to Backchurch Lane;

"It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved."

I'll stick with the Telegraph.
Done to death and the more knowledgeable Ripperologists,especially on the Forum, seem to have unraveled the truth.

My post should have read 22 Ellen Street.
Suspect the alleged move was fabricated by a lazy journalist.

PS. Seriously doubt that Schwartz and Wess were in Paris prior to 1888,let alone in each others company.

[DJA]

Bernard Schwartz

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Louis's cart did not pass Mortimer's residence.

In fact, it didn't even enter Berner St.

By 1.02, PC Smith was in the yard, by which time multiple others had already seen the body, and subsequently made statements to that effect.

[DJA]

Ol' Blue Eyes.

[Michael W Richards]

Although the Telegraph reported Louis as saying "I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street", the Daily News says "I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road", with the Morning Advertiser even going as far as saying "I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street"

Harris' shop was at 84 on the NE corner. There was another tobacco shop at no.80, next door to the shop on the NW corner. So therefore, if correct, Louis did indeed pass Fanny at no.36 before entering the club gateway. It seems possible to me that the confusion may have arisen if Louis had actually said "'baccy shop" rather than "baker's shop".



According to his Star interview, he was moving from Berner St to Backchurch Lane;

"It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved."

That last bit is what I was referring to....has anyone confirmed the Ellen Street quote.... and if his lodging were in Berner Street, isn't it possible they were in one of the cottages that Wess's shop was at the far end of?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok, you've refused to accept that these are interpretations made about statements, they aren't historical records of what transpired.

This is from the Star Oct 1st...

"The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he SAW THE WHOLE THING. It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings. He described THE MAN WITH THE WOMAN as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society. The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

Israel said the the second man rushed out and shouted some sort of warning to the man with Liz, which again, is interpreted. It could well be that the call Lipski is to tell BSM that Israel is watching.

Its, again, also what Abberline believed. The term was used derogatorily. Since Pipeman has carroty mustache, its unlikely a call to a Jewish co-conspirator. Which makes Pipeman, and BSM gentiles. We already know Israel of theatrical appearance must have looked pretty obviously jewish.

Bold added by me - excellent point Michael.

So in this version we have 'partially intoxicated man' (PIM), replacing BSM, and knifeman replacing pipeman.
Knifeman also plays a very different role to pipeman.
I wonder why knifeman is so aghast at seeing another man push a prostitute?
Schwartz' flight response seems even more excessive that in the "official version".

What this demonstrates, is the huge danger of relying on eyewitness testimony.
Especially eyewitness testimony that has passed through multiple hands, regarding an event that took place on a dimly lit street!

By the way, who do you suppose actually kills Liz in this version?
Is it knifeman, after exiting The Nelson (apparently not partially intoxicated), who wants to kill Liz, but who must first deal with PIM?
Or is it PIM, who in spite of being apparently weaponless, as well as half drunk, manages to disarm knifeman (who then presumably flees the scene, just like IS), and then kills Liz just for jolly (wouldn't you)?