A Whip and a Prod

[drstrange169]

>>Hello Dusty,

Welcome to the boards.<<

Hello C.D. I'm assuming you had a big night out! I've been on these boards since the 1990's and the post you quoted wasn't mine;-)

[DJA]

>>Are you from Sydney? (Ultimate Australian insult courtesy of Los Trio Ringbarkus )<<

Wow! That unlocked some memories. I did a film for them back in the 80's (19 not 1880's) called "The Cleaning".

David Rabbitborough The Australian Suburban Home 1 - YouTube

[DJA]

>>Hello Dusty,

Welcome to the boards.<<

Hello C.D. I'm assuming you had a big night out! I've been on these boards since the 1990's and the post you quoted wasn't mine;-)

He was addressing Dusty Bones.

[DJA]

>>With a view of testing the accuracy and honesty of Packer’s testimony, the detectives obtained an order to view the body of the woman murdered in Mitre Square, and took Packer to see it, leaving him under the impression that they were taking him to see the Berner Street victim. <<

The two "detectives" concerned were were Le Grand and Batchelor, so we know how much salt to take swallowing that particular claim.

Perhaps BS Man was also a detective/body guard.

The two people who got an up close look at him with Stride were excluded from her Inquest.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A credible timeline of Liz Stride's death, has to allow for these time-spans (one general, one specific):

• witnesses observation of time to next event detail
• throat cut to expiry of life

Let's suppose the time of death estimated in this post - 12.45 am.
Interuptionists would obviously disagree with this, as they believe Diemschutz' story, but more on that further down.

So how long does Liz take to die, once her throat is cut?

Dr Blackwell: The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 inches below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 inch below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side.

Hard to say how long she would have lingered, but let's suppose 2 minutes.

Diemschutz: [I] returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street.

So what is Diemschutz' travel time from the baker shop to No 40? Let's say 1 minute.

Schwartz via Swanson: 12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed ...

I have read the estimated walking time from the corner of Commercial Rd & Berner St, to No 40 Berner, as 6 minutes.
This page suggests longer:

Schwartz's time onto to Berner St has been estimated from the average of walking 500 yards in 8-9 minutes with respect to his 12:45am sighting.

Will stick with 6 minutes though (have to give the Interuptionists a chance!)

Therefore we have:

12:43: Liz has her throat cut. Israel Schwartz is walking along Commercial Rd.
12:45: Liz dies. Schwartz turns into Berner St.
12:51: Schwartz reaches the gates at No 40, and witnesses an incident involving a man and woman.
12:51: Some seconds later, Schwartz senses grave danger to himself, and flees the scene.

So the murderer departs the location of the crime, just after 12:43.

The Evening News re Mrs Mortimer: ... shortly before a quarter to one o’clock she heard the measured heavy stamp of a policeman passing the house on his beat.

By 1:00, there is already a crowd starting to gather around the body ...

The Times re PC Smith (Oct 2): On returning to Berner Street at 1.00am, he saw a crowd at the entrance to Dutfield's Yard, but had heard no cries of 'Police' beforehand. When he got there he saw Constables 12H.R and 252H; he saw the deceased and went to fetch the ambulance. Dr Frederick Blackwell's assistant Edward Johnston was just arriving as he left.

From within her home, Fanny is in an excellent position to observe the time - how could she make time estimates without her own clock?
So there are two good reasons for supposing the "measured heavy stamp" is not that of a policeman.

What was the state of the bleeding, just after 1:00?

[Coroner] Only her boots visible?
[PC Lamb] Yes, and only the soles of them. There were no signs of a struggle. Some of the blood was in a liquid state, and had run towards the kitchen door of the club. A little - that nearest to her on the ground - was slightly congealed.

So blood had just started to congeal, and legs were not visible.

Mrs Mortimer: The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible.

More evidence of body tampering.

Returning to the timeline - now the Diemschutz version:

12:51: Schwartz reaches the gates at No 40, and witnesses an incident involving a man and woman.
01:00: Diemschutz sees clock - it reads 1:00
01:01: Murderer cuts Liz's throat
01:01: Mrs Mortimer hears the sound of a pony and cart going by
01:01: Seconds later, Diemschutz begins turning into the lane of Dutfield's Yard
01:03: Liz dies

Suppose that Diemschutz' reading of the time is inaccurate, for whatever reason, and that he actually pulls into the yard at around 12:55.
The problem remains that multiple club and non-club witnesses claim to be with the body by 1:00, and there is also the issue of Mrs Mortimer hearing a pony and cart go by, after 1:00.
Just as importantly, estimates of time of death centre around 12:45.
Finally, what happens in the 10 minute period between 12:51 and 1:01?

[drstrange169]

>> ... have read the estimated walking time from the corner of Commercial Rd & Berner St, to No 40 Berner, as 6 minutes.<<

As already noted, I've walked it, slowly in 1 minute 10 seconds. Google maps has a measuring app that will give a rough time of 1 minute from Commercial Road to Fairclough Street.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/H...7!2d51.5135462

Six minutes is a truly bizarre time!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Me: So there are two good reasons for supposing the "measured heavy stamp" is not that of a policeman.

Just to be clear, the other reason is the timings of PC Smith beat:

So what times did Smith give regarding his beat? He said the whole of his beat took 25 – 30 minutes to complete. He said that he passed Stride and a man at sometime between 12:30 and 12:35. He also tells us that he returned to Berner Street from Commercial Road at 1am and saw a crowd of people outside Dutfield’s Yard. When he got to the yard he said that he saw Police Constables 252H and 12HR already there with the body. He said that he had returned to Berner Street as part of his normal beat and not because he had been called. The gates to the yard were still open at that point. He saw that the woman was dead and then left to fetch an ambulance. As he was leaving, the assistant of the doctor who had been called arrived.

Even when supposing that Diemschutz arrives at 12:57:30, and Smith at 1:02:30 (that is, when separating their estimates by 5 minutes), it is still very hard to fit Diemschutz' arrival time into the picture, no matter who you believe!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> ... have read the estimated walking time from the corner of Commercial Rd & Berner St, to No 40 Berner, as 6 minutes.<<

As already noted, I've walked it, slowly in 1 minute 10 seconds. Google maps has a measuring app that will give a rough time of 1 minute from Commercial Road to Fairclough Street.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/H...7!2d51.5135462

Six minutes is a truly bizarre time!

From the corner of Commercial Rd and Henriques St, to the corner of Berner & Fairclough St, Google Maps gave me 2 minutes.

(It appears someone has calculated as though the estimated distance in feet, was yards instead.)

So this sentence:

Finally, what happens in the 10 minute period between 12:51 and 1:01?

Needs to change to:

Finally, what happens in the 14 minute period between 12:47 and 1:01?

After the humiliation of being thrown on the pavement, does Liz relent and give the customer what they want?
Apparently this guy's not prepared to wait until some other night, when Liz is more in the mood.
So Liz screams in frustration:

You bastard!
Fine then!
Tonight it is!

... but not very loudly (so as to not wake the neighborhood).

Nearly 14 minutes later, Liz is subjected to the ultimate humiliation.
Perhaps the poor girl was a bit out of practice?

Google Maps also gave me 2 minutes for 100 Commercial Rd to the corner of Berner and Fairclough.
100 Commercial Rd was the address of Dr Blackwell and his assistant Edward Johnston.

[Johnston] On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436H.
After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the constable.
In the yard adjoining No. 40, I was shown the figure of a woman lying on the left aide. There was crowd of people in the yard and some police. No one touching her.
There was very little light. What light there was came from the policemen's lanterns.
I examined the woman, and found a deep incision on the throat.
[Coroner] Was there blood coming from the wound?
[Johnston] No; it had stopped. I also felt the body to see if it was warm, and found it all warm except the hands.

So Johnston is informed of the murder by PC Collins, at about 1:03.
This is after Diemschutz "discovers" the body, supposedly at about 1:01.
Think about how many things must occur between these points in time.
Remember that walking time from the doctors surgery is about 2 minutes.
When Johnston arrives at the site, there is already a crowd around the body.
If he leaves the surgery immediately after informing Dr Blackwell, and then jogs to 40 Berner, he arrives at 1:04, maybe 1:05.
When he gets there, the bleeding has already stopped and hands are quite cold.

When we consider Diemschutz discovering the body, going into club, returning with others to the body, running off for police, not finding any, finally one is found, another goes to the surgery, then Johnston's estimate of the time must have been way off.
Either that, or Diemschutz story is lie.

[DJA]

The Commercial Road to Fairclough Street block,corner to corner,is 130 meters.

As the crow flies,from Berner/Fairclough to Eddowes' spot in Mitre Square is 880 meters.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We could suppose that Johnston is not notified until around 1:08-1:10 (5 to 7 mins later), so that he arrives at 40 Berner around 1:10-1:12.
Doing so however, is going to set off a cascade of issues.

PC Lamb: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked where, and as they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down and said, "There." I saw people moving some distance down the street. I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H. Arriving at the gateway of No. 40 I observed something dark lying on the ground on the right-hand side. I turned my light on, when I found that the object was a woman, with her throat cut and apparently dead. I sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and a young man who was standing by I despatched to the police station to inform the inspector what had occurred. On my arrival there were about thirty people in the yard, and others followed me in.

So Lamb is about 2½ mins walking time from 40 Berner - about 1½ mins jogging time.
This is "shortly before one o'clock".
On arrival, there are already 30 people in the yard!
After viewing the body, he sends Collins to the doctors surgery - 2 minutes walk away.
Johnston claims to be notified by Collins at about 1:03.
These times jibe perfectly!

PC Smith: I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived. The gates at the side of the club were not then closed. I do not remember that I passed any person on my way down. I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police-station for the ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr. Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away.

So Smith is onsite at about 1:01, and other PCs are already there.
After a short while he leaves for the station, and as he is leaving, Johnston arrives.
Once again, the times jibe.

At 1:01, Louis Diemschutz pulls into Dutfield's Yard.
Except of course, he didn't. He couldn't have.

[c.d.]

>>Hello Dusty,

Welcome to the boards.<<

Hello C.D. I'm assuming you had a big night out! I've been on these boards since the 1990's and the post you quoted wasn't mine;-)

Yes, but apparently not as big as the night you had as I was addressing Dusty Bones. No problem though.

c.d.

[c.d.]

>> Schwartz's story doesn't direct attention away from a Jewish offender but towards one, and therefore does not fit the conspiracy objective. Schwartz, therefore, cannot be part of it ...<<

Hello Jeff, you've pointed this out to Micheal before, but he's committed to his theory despite the fact that every part of it has more holes in it than a porcupine's pullover.

Yes, getting Michael to even question one of his theories let alone abandon it would be as productive as trying to convince ice not to be so cold.

c.d.

[DJA]

Yes, but apparently not as big as the night you had as I was addressing Dusty Bones. No problem though.

c.d.

It's Straya Day Long Weekend down here in Oz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>The matted hair and muddied clothing on the left side says its most probable she was cut somewhere other than where she fell ... <<

Mrs Stride was lying in the gutter and it had been raining that night.

Did the blood trek across a mud filled gutter, on its journey from body to drain, or did it flow over the cobblestones?

If the former, what was the source of all the dirt/mud?
Why did multiple sources say the blood flowed like a stream?

If the latter, then the matted hair and plastered clothing suggest movement of the body.

By the way, Stride was not lying in the gutter, she was lying across the wheel rut - head on one side, body on the other.
The earth under the wheel rut would have been firm from compression, so what little dirt was in it would have been partly washed away before Stride was laid over it.

[drstrange169]

>> I was addressing Dusty Bones <<

I have to sue for copyright infringement!