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A Whip and a Prod

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  • This snippet from the description of Packer's statement is worth focusing on:

    At last the couple moved from their position and Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then 10 or 15 minutes past 12 o’clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public-houses had been closed.
    So where had they gone when he lost sight of them?

    This dissertation suggests that the ~12:12 time at this which occurs, could have actually been much earlier (Packer mistook the departures at the end of the club meeting, for the closing of the pubs at around midnight).
    Stride seems to have spent a lot of time outside the club, before her murder.
    It's interesting when we consider her standing with the man, outside the club, possibly before midnight - at least an hour before her death!
    The we have...

    Schwartz > Interpreter > Abberline > Swanson: He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.
    The area of the lane in which Stride was found, was very dark.
    Does "He tried to pull the woman into the street" suggest Stride really wanted to stay in the darkness, with a man who wanted to throw her around?
    Surely not! So how about:

    Prior to her death, Liz Stride had been inside the club, and was attempting to reenter it when she was murdered

    So what about the issue of Stride's matted and muddied hair?
    From the above dissertation:

    Dr Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.

    William Marshall: While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all.

    James Brown: Was it raining at the time? - No. I went on.

    PC Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.
    Her hair seems to have had plenty of time to dry out, and where she lay would have been no more than damp.
    ​​​​So what explains the muddied hair?
    Was someone(s) trying to make it look as though she had been laying where she were found, longer than she had been?

    Comment


    • Given that Packer had resided at 25 Fairclough Street two doors from the pub, before moving around the corner to 44 Berner Street,right next to the public house ...... no!

      How many people do you know that would be described as broad shouldered,and what do they do to obtain that physique?
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • Broad shouldered man

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        • Yep.

          That is precisely what I mean.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • Modern equivalent.
            Attached Files
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
              Broad shouldered man

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              He looks like he's about to extol the virtues of the "smooth, mild flavour of Lucky Strikes".
              Them's the vagaries.

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              • Pipe man

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                • Bundy,

                  You might have something there.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by DJA; 01-24-2020, 09:18 AM.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • So,what are we doing on Monday?

                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      Jeff,

                      I believe it was Abberline who connected the call out with anti Semitic overtures, but rather than what you suggest above, it was anti Jew sentiments directed at Schwartz, or in a mocking fashion to a compatriot across the street..which would make him a like minded person, that were believed to be the nature of "Lipski". One needs only to see the reaction to the GSG to know the Police were very aware how volatile an anti Jew neighborhood could be.

                      Israels story in the way he told it was to accomplish 2 things, a strong likelihood that the murderer was never on club property that night, and that he was also a jew hater. Context...in September the investigation took 2 segments of the population and fixated on them...medically trained people, and local Jewish Immigrants. This happened weeks into that kind of door to door searching. Not only did the club want to shuffle off suspicions, it wanted to downplay any idea that Jews were involved.

                      Israel in his story felt personally threatened, that's not going to be the case with your suggested interpretation. A derogatory anti-Semitic call from one co-conspirator is suggesting we have a "Lipski" here. A proper name associated with someone who had a 6 month pregnant woman drink acid.
                      I can see your argument that Israel's story suggests the murderer was not on club property, given he says he followed him down the street. However, his statement implies "pipeman's name" might have been Lipski - and this was certainly the view of home office at the time, and the police did search for all families with that name in the area. It was also the meaning of Schwartz's original statement, reflecting what Schwartz intended to convey. Abberline's reappraisal of Schwartz's intended meaning to the one now most commonly held (that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz not at Pipeman, and was an insult) is neither here nor there with regards to whether or not Schwartz's statement is consistent with a club conspiracy to direct attention away from a Jewish perpetrator. What Schwartz's statement as he gave it accomplishes is to implicate a Jewish offender, directly against the goal of the hypothesized conspiracy. Focusing on Abberline's reinterpretation of Schwartz's statement is no longer looking at what Schwartz had originally said, and it is what Schwartz originally said that would reflect the goals of said conspiracy. Abberline's reinterpretation would fit the club conspiracy though, as one could argue that he was deflecting evidence against a Jewish offender to make it appear less incriminating - but I think adding Abberline to the conspiracy would be even harder to swallow. As it is, though, Schwartz, given his original statement and it's intended meaning by him, cannot be part of the conspiracy. His testimony, as originally given, runs directly counter to its goals.

                      - Jeff
                      Last edited by JeffHamm; 01-24-2020, 09:55 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                        Who let an enterprising journalist in here? Obviously trying to drum up excitement since it's been non controversial for a few weeks now.
                        So, you want some controversy, huh?
                        Well, I'll give you controversy, mister.
                        [evil laughter ]

                        Elizabeth Stride: Her Killer and Time of Death
                        On 2 October, Dr Blackwell testified at the inquest that Elizabeth would have been dead between twenty to thirty minutes before he arrived at 1:16. This would place Elizabeth's time of death between 12:46 and 12:56. Plus, on 3 October, Dr Phillips testified that Elizabeth died within an hour of his arrival. But when did he arrive at the scene? Dr Blackwell arrived at 1:16am and believed that Dr Phillips arrived at the scene twenty to thirty minutes after he did. This would place Dr Phillips' arrival between 1:36 and 1:46. At 1:45, however, Inspector Reid arrived at Dutfield's Yard, and Dr Phillips was already with the body. Giving Dr Phillips some time to get into the yard, greet Dr Blackwell, and begin looking at the body prior Insp Reid's arrival, we should be able to safely estimate that Dr Phillips arrived between 1:36 and 1:44. This would mean that Dr Phillips estimated that Elizabeth died no earlier than between 12:36 and 12:44.
                        So according to the estimates of these two doctors, Liz died at around 12:45 (average of 12:40 & 12:51).

                        Schwartz via Swanson: 12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street [Ellen St], Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road & having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.
                        So how long would it have taken Schwartz to walk from the corner of Commercial Rd & Berner St, to No 40 Berner?
                        3 minutes? 5 minutes? 8 minutes?
                        We should probably assume that if Schwartz' estimate of the time is fairly accurate, then he reaches the gates no earlier than 12:50.
                        Relative to the estimated murder time, that would place Schwartz at least 5 minutes late or "behind time".

                        Schwartz (continues): He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.
                        So tell me, who is "the woman" Schwartz refers to?

                        The woman Schwartz sees thrown to the ground, could not have been Liz Stride, because by the time this occurs, Liz is already lying dead in the gutter





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                        • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                          …. However, his statement implies "pipeman's name" might have been Lipski - and this was certainly the view of home office at the time, and the police did search for all families with that name in the area."


                          - Jeff
                          Actually Jeff I don't see it that way myself, if anything it might have been a co-conspirator, BSM to Pipeman, nod towards Schwartz, indicating...hey look Pipeman, we have a Lipksi here. Lipski being perceived as a negative commentary or slur upon local Jews after the previous years event.

                          In my opinion the main objective of how Israel frames his story is to present an off site assailant, we could argue the semantics of the Lipski aspect, but the real value he has is placing the likely killer with the victim off the premises. I don't really see any objection to the real story being that he left the club through the side door, while in the passageway he sees a man and a woman struggling near the open gates, on the inside, and he hustles around them to leave. He was at the meeting and left shortly after his friend Wess did. That would work fine I believe, and provide Israel with a much better story than he was "seeing if his wife had finished moving"...at 12:45am. 12 hours after he left her for the market.
                          Michael Richards

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                          • Pipeman was possibly Louis Hagens having a knock off smoke after a long day operating The Nelson Public House.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                              The Daily Telegraph's version of the Inquest ........

                              Dr Phillips ...... Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.
                              Phillips: Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.
                              Juxtaposing those quotes against the following, really gets the noggin' joggin'

                              Dr Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.

                              PC Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.
                              Did they cut Stride's throat in the back yard, rake over the evidence, and then carry her down to near the gates?...

                              ... on an old blanket?

                              They could have found the evidence, if they'd had Burgho and Barnaby ...

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                              • Are you from Sydney?

                                (Ultimate Australian insult courtesy of Los Trio Ringbarkus )
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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