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  • In other words, there is no mention of the handkerchief around Stride's neck being twisted.
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    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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    • Morning Advertiser, Oct 3rd 1888
      Elizabeth Stride inquest

      PC Lamb: I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time.


      ​​​​​For many during this era, time is an approximation based on - how long does it usually take me to walk from here to there, when does the fixed-duty constable usually end his shift, the brewery clock versus the church clock,&c. These people could only guess at the time as well as you and I can, as indicated by PC Lamb.
      there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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      • Corona virus must be a bugger in your part of the world
        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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        • Dr Blackwell (effectively) estimated time of death at between 12:46 and 12:56.

          Dr Phillips said she died within an hour of his arrival.

          Blackwell estimated Phillips to have arrived 20 to 30 minutes after his own arrival, which according to his own timepiece, was 1:16.

          That would place Phillips' arrival at between 1:36 and 1:46.

          However, Inspector Reid arrived at Dutfield's Yard at 1:45, at which point Phillips was with the body.

          We could therefore assume that Phillips arrives no later than 1:43 (and let's actually assume 1:43).

          Louis claims to have seen the clock at exactly 1:00, so let's have him pulling up alongside Liz at 1:01.

          Let's assume the throat cut has just occurred, and the Ripper is hiding further up the yard.

          The nature of the injury and extent of blood flow would suggest that death was not almost instantaneous.

          Let's assume death occurs two minutes after the wound is inflicted (does anyone have a better estimate?).

          Assuming Louis' time and story true, time of death is therefore 1:03.

          This time (1:03), also sets the latest possible time of death, using Phillips' 'within the hour' estimate.

          The earliest time of death would be 1:43 minus 60 minutes, or 12:43.

          So we have Phillips estimate of 12:43-1:03 - for a mean of 12:53.

          We also have Blackwell's estimate of 12:46-12:56 - for a mean of 12:51.

          The mean of the means, is 12:52.

          This is 11 minutes prior to the approximate time of death in the interruption model - even when using Louis' 1:01 time as part of the calculation!

          Originally posted by DJA View Post
          Crikey.

          Bottom lip,cachous ...... she is a bleeder. Genetic condition.

          Like Eddowes' eyes ..... different disease named Xanthelasma.

          Too many people consider research to be reading others garbage and adding their own.
          So instead of believing my garbage, let's set the record straight...

          In the interruption model, Liz dies at 1:blank am.

          Please fill in the blank...
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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          • Wasn't aimed at you.

            Don't have a problem with the baker's clock being fast.
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • It appeared to be aimed at me, given the context of the thread, but never mind.

              So, if the baker's clock (or the clock on Commercial Road (who knows?)) is fast, does Louis actually arrive at closer to 12:55? Fanny Mortimer?...

              Also, if you're comment wasn't directed at me, that would mean my post #337 has not been replied to, regarding the blood.

              So let me try again, to get a response to this...

              [Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth?
              [Phillips] Yes. The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
              [Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
              [Phillips] I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.
              What does "I considered [the blood] had been transplanted", mean?

              This would appear to be a crucial question.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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              • My reply was directed to both of you.

                The idea of a neckerchief's bow being pulled at would be more likely to pull the knot open not tighter.

                For the umpteenth time ...... Liz was dead before her throat was cut.

                Transplant | Definition of Transplant by Merriam-Webster
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • DJA: Wasn't aimed at you.
                  DJA: My reply was directed to both of you.
                  Me:
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                  DJA: The idea of a neckerchief's bow being pulled at would be more likely to pull the knot open not tighter.
                  ​​​​​​​Exactly! So why did Blackwell state that it was very tight? How did it end up that way?
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                    For the umpteenth time ...... Liz was dead before her throat was cut.
                    Not according to Phillips;

                    "It is evident that the haemorrhage which produced death was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery."

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                    • Perhaps Liz tied her scarf tight herself?

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                      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        For the umpteenth time ...... Liz was dead before her throat was cut.

                        Transplant | Definition of Transplant by Merriam-Webster
                        The most applicable definition on that page is:

                        to remove from one place or context and settle or introduce elsewhere

                        We can use this definition to interpret Dr Phillips' statement...

                        ... I considered [some of the blood] had been transplanted ... from the original flow from the neck.

                        ... to ascertain that some of the blood was moved from one place to another.

                        The later place is known. The initial context can be reasonably guessed, and using post #349, we have an estimated time. Thus...

                        Liz Stride was killed at the back of Dutfield's Yard, at approximately 12:50 am.
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                          It appeared to be aimed at me, given the context of the thread, but never mind.

                          So, if the baker's clock (or the clock on Commercial Road (who knows?)) is fast, does Louis actually arrive at closer to 12:55? Fanny Mortimer?...

                          Also, if you're comment wasn't directed at me, that would mean my post #337 has not been replied to, regarding the blood.

                          So let me try again, to get a response to this...

                          [Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth?
                          [Phillips] Yes. The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
                          [Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
                          [Phillips] I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.


                          What does "I considered [the blood] had been transplanted", mean?

                          This would appear to be a crucial question.
                          It reads to me that Phillips is indicating that there was some blood stains present that he believes reflect "transfer" (i.e. such as a shoe print might leave - to be clear, I'm not saying he's indicating there were bloody footprints, just that those might be one sort of transplant - his statement doesn't specify). However, it also seems to me, given the quotes above, that he appears to be suggesting that in his opinion these "other, transplanted stains" were due to the traffic around the body and not part of the original crime scene activities. (the "I could trance none ..." part seems to indicate there were no further blood spots related to the offender/victim's actions found, and the "...except that which I considered had been transplanted - ...." seems to be him acknowledging there were some other spots but his "except ..." qualifier indicates he believes the transplanting occurred after the offender had left (i.e. either by police examiniations, or by the crowd, etc, but again, he doesn't specify those details).

                          - Jeff

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                          • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                            Not according to Phillips;

                            "It is evident that the haemorrhage which produced death was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery."
                            After Phillips all but named Sutton at Chapman's Inquest he seemed to back peddle.
                            At least until Mary Ann Kelly was dead.

                            There is the likely hood that Sutton was at the cutting edge of medical knowledge in many areas,as was his big mate.

                            The autopsy of Stride's heart proves she died from asphyxiation.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • Pretty much what Dr Blackwell said;

                              "There were no spots of blood-but there was a little trodden about near to where the body was lying"

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                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                                Perhaps Liz tied her scarf tight herself?
                                Blackwell: I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way.
                                Why knotted and not a simple bow?

                                Did the murderer pull at the material around the neck, or the end(s) of the scarf, which in the later case did not cause the scarf to come loose, because it was conveniently in a knot?

                                Blackwell: In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf.
                                The scarf in that photo does not have the convenient edge that the murderer would have required, to run his knife along, in near darkness.
                                Please explain how the murderer did in fact manage to trace the lower edge of the scarf.
                                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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