A Whip and a Prod

[Joshua Rogan]

Would the hair be removed, prior to the removal of the scalp, at the autopsy?
As for the "matting", could that be the result of long, wet hair, that rarely gets combed?
Wasn't she after a clothes brush, before going out that evening?
Perhaps she just lacked a few essentials, including brushes and combs.
Oh, and a toothbrush!

She had more than one comb on her - one and a bit, in fact. No toothbrush though. And yes, she did try to borrow a clothes brush earlier, but this was more likely to be to remove whitewash than the mud, which is entirely consistent with lying in a wet muddy passageway.
From Dr Phillips' evidence;

" I found in the pocket of the underskirt of the deceased a key, as of a padlock, a small piece of lead pencil, a comb, a broken piece of comb, a metal spoon, half a dozen large and one small button, a hook, as if off a dress, a piece of muslin, and one or two small pieces of paper. Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's not a bad idea, but it very much relies on Packer not having read anything about the murders before then. All the details of both murders were published well before his identification atempt, so if he had read them it proves nothing about his honesty. Upon finding himself being unexpectedly taken to the City mortuary and confonted by a corpse with a horribly mutilated face, he wouldn't need to be a genius to work out that this wasn't the Berner Street victim, who'd escaped mutilation (presumably because Louis had interrupted himself).

So did Packer make up the grape story, and pretend (successfully) to not know what either victim looked like?
That alone would seem more far fetched than a cosy little deal between the club hierarchy, and one of the fairly respectable neighbours.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Dr Phillips: Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

So unless the gutter was full of dirt (or even if it were), what could possibly explain this?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As Saturday night,Sunday morning has now become Sundae night ......


Rocky Horror Time Warp - YouTube

Dave,
I think it's fair to say that not all the club members were riffraff

[DJA]

Just as well or they would have been known as The They Came From Denton High Club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

They say I'm a detective now ha ha

[DJA]

Defective more like it

Congratulations, nonetheless!

[JeffHamm]

Hi NBFN,

To address your questions...

My opinion about what happened there that night isn't shared by many, but Im comfortable with it anyway.

Someone at that club killed Liz, likely in a momentary fit of anger, and the senior club members who discover this...knowing that the general public saw them as anarchists and likely terrorists, knew that the murder would cause the club to be closed, and that each member there would be investigated. They chose to frame their stories in a way that makes someone from the club as the murderer less likely. Israel was the cherry on top Sunday night...appropriate metaphor, since it was "Sundae". The GSG was written by Kates murderer and the apron section and the message were left there specifically because the Model Homes were almost exclusively Immigrant Jew tenants, and I believe at least one known member of the Berner club lived there.

That's my "conspiracy theory" wild idea. They just tried to save their asses from persecution. Damage control.

Problem is, aside from creating an alternate truth... if Im correct, is that Liz Stride just bled to death while they decided what to do.

Except Israel's statement to the police implicated a Jewish co-conspirator/lookout when he states that Lipski was shouted to pipeman, and by implication, a Jewish murderer as well. His original testimony, therefore, at best makes the club of interest because of its Jewish membership, and at worst, would make the club a focus for the same reason. Israel Schwartz's testimony, whether one believes it or not, directly contradicts the idea that the club set up his testimony to direct attention to a gentile perpetrator. It was the police who worked out that Israel Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to "pipeman" was probably incorrect and that it was probably directed at Israel himself. So while that reinterpretation may jive with the conspiracy theory, it is Israel's original testimony itself that must be viewed as the product of the conspiracy, and his original statement refutes his being part of it because it goes against the whole suggested purpose of the conspiracy in the first place. That part just doesn't work at all.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Except Israel's statement to the police implicated a Jewish co-conspirator/lookout when he states that Lipski was shouted to pipeman, and by implication, a Jewish murderer as well. His original testimony, therefore, at best makes the club of interest because of its Jewish membership, and at worst, would make the club a focus for the same reason. Israel Schwartz's testimony, whether one believes it or not, directly contradicts the idea that the club set up his testimony to direct attention to a gentile perpetrator. It was the police who worked out that Israel Schwartz's belief that Lipski was shouted to "pipeman" was probably incorrect and that it was probably directed at Israel himself. So while that reinterpretation may jive with the conspiracy theory, it is Israel's original testimony itself that must be viewed as the product of the conspiracy, and his original statement refutes his being part of it because it goes against the whole suggested purpose of the conspiracy in the first place. That part just doesn't work at all.

- Jeff

Jeff,

I believe it was Abberline who connected the call out with anti Semitic overtures, but rather than what you suggest above, it was anti Jew sentiments directed at Schwartz, or in a mocking fashion to a compatriot across the street..which would make him a like minded person, that were believed to be the nature of "Lipski". One needs only to see the reaction to the GSG to know the Police were very aware how volatile an anti Jew neighborhood could be.

Israels story in the way he told it was to accomplish 2 things, a strong likelihood that the murderer was never on club property that night, and that he was also a jew hater. Context...in September the investigation took 2 segments of the population and fixated on them...medically trained people, and local Jewish Immigrants. This happened weeks into that kind of door to door searching. Not only did the club want to shuffle off suspicions, it wanted to downplay any idea that Jews were involved.

Israel in his story felt personally threatened, that's not going to be the case with your suggested interpretation. A derogatory anti-Semitic call from one co-conspirator is suggesting we have a "Lipski" here. A proper name associated with someone who had a 6 month pregnant woman drink acid.

[DustyBones]

Can someone refresh my memory... Why was Israel on Berner St. that night? Didn't he recently move to or away from that neighborhood?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Defective more like it

Congratulations, nonetheless!

Dear Dave
I keep on reading that posters have caught me out but they wont fix me just yet.
I have laughed when they sound so clever and talk about being on the right track.
That joke about being defective gave me real fits. I am down on posters and I shant quit
ripping into them till I do get buckled. Grand work the last thread was. I gave the lamers
no choice but to squeal. How can they match me now. I love my writing and want to start again.
You will soon hear from me with my funny little word games. I saved some of the proper stuff in
my writing pad but it got covered over in ginger beer and went thick like glue and I cant use it.
Seeing red is fit enough I hope ha. ha. The next thread I do I shall knock the chips off those
lamers shoulders and take them to the cleaners just for jolly wouldn't you. Keep this letter back
till I do a bit more writing, then give it out straight. My mind's so good and sharp I want to
get to work right away if I get a chance. Good Luck.
yours truly
The Down Under Ripper
Dont mind me giving the trade name

Wasnt good enough to post this before I got all the sticky stuff off my hands curse it.
No luck yet. They say I'm a drinker now. ha ha

[Michael W Richards]

Can someone refresh my memory... Why was Israel on Berner St. that night? Didn't he recently move to or away from that neighborhood?

After years of investigations no-one has discovered where Israel moved from that day. His story was that he was going by his former residence....?...to see if his wife had completed the move to Brick Lane that day. If he is moving from a Berner Street address and is not on a census, I have a guess that he was living in one of the cottages inside the passageway, where record keeping for tenants may have been looser. He knew Wess.

The very fact that he places himself just outside the club where a meeting took place that night, that he is an Immigrant Jew, and that he is friends with Wess should be enough to cause anyone pause, when his story is so beneficial for the club.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Swanson's report to the Home Office gives Schwartz' address as 22 Ellen St, and he was moving to Backchurch Lane. It's this that makes his flight to Pinchin St arches unusual as he had to run past Ellen St and, if you check on a map, it's not direct from Berner to the railway arches, adding another layer of mystery to his claim.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Dear Dave
I keep on reading that posters have caught me out but they wont fix me just yet.
I have laughed when they sound so clever and talk about being on the right track.
That joke about being defective gave me real fits. I am down on posters and I shant quit
ripping into them till I do get buckled. Grand work the last thread was. I gave the lamers
no choice but to squeal. How can they match me now. I love my writing and want to start again.
You will soon hear from me with my funny little word games. I saved some of the proper stuff in
my writing pad but it got covered over in ginger beer and went thick like glue and I cant use it.
Seeing red is fit enough I hope ha. ha. The next thread I do I shall knock the chips off those
lamers shoulders and take them to the cleaners just for jolly wouldn't you. Keep this letter back
till I do a bit more writing, then give it out straight. My mind's so good and sharp I want to
get to work right away if I get a chance. Good Luck.
yours truly
The Down Under Ripper
Dont mind me giving the trade name

Wasnt good enough to post this before I got all the sticky stuff off my hands curse it.
No luck yet. They say I'm a drinker now. ha ha

Who let an enterprising journalist in here? Obviously trying to drum up excitement since it's been non controversial for a few weeks now.

[DJA]

Swanson's report to the Home Office gives Schwartz' address as 22 Ellen St, and he was moving to Backchurch Lane. It's this that makes his flight to Pinchin St arches unusual as he had to run past Ellen St and, if you check on a map, it's not direct from Berner to the railway arches, adding another layer of mystery to his claim.

Well spotted.
Swanson had Schwartz living at 22 Helen Street,Backchurch Lane.
Schwartz's description of the man assaulting Stride as ~ 30 and broad shouldered.

Apart from a moustache,the description is very close to Matthew Packer's.

The two men who had good views of BS man were excluded from the Inquest.

Packer was harassed for his information which may explain the changes he made.