A Whip and a Prod

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just to address a couple of points...



I think when Eddowes is found Liz suddenly becomes the interrupted Ripper murder, when in fact the evidence suggests that Pollys actually was. But that second murder, (of three throat slittings that night in the area), suggests that the killer wasn't someone from the club, because when the police got there they locked down the site. No one left until interviewed. So...no club member then went off to kill Kate.

What is possible though, going down that road, is that a club member did kill Liz and was hustled off the premises and shooed away before the cops get there. He then could go anywhere else and kill another person if he wanted to.

I'm still not quite sure how all the rapid planning is actually supposed to help.
Why not just do what they said they did - go for help and cooperate?

At the time, the idea that Stride's murderer had been interrupted, seems to have caught on pretty quickly - that's what counts.
What the evidence points to now, is irrelevant. No?

This locking down of the site (40 Berner St), consisted of what, other than closing the gates and informing everyone present to stay put?
It wasn't quite Fort Knox level security, was it?
The backdoor could have easily been used, and as you say, who knows who snuck away after the murder, but before the lockdown?

I don't agree with that interpretation in the last line, but as a coincidental element, it surely wasn't planned to be like that. Although the GSG might be the blame that is missing.

I think the club pulled-off the double event, with the minor exception of the GSG.
The graffito hints at resentment, perhaps owing to an unequal sharing of risk and reward.
JtR wanted to leave a (premeditated) hint, without giving the game away, perhaps so that just in case he ever gets caught, he doesn't go down alone.

It's interesting that, when the alternative naming of the club is used (International Working Mens Educational Society), the acronym just about works if the 'W' and 'M' are switched around...

The IMWES are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

I do favor 'Juwes' though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

From Ripperologist 96 October 2008...

[44 Berner St] is the residence of a man named Mathew Packer, who carries on a small business as a greengrocer, and fruiterer. His shop is an insignificant place with a half window in front, of the sort common in the locality, and most of his dealings are carried on through the lower part of the window case, in which his fruit is exposed for sale.

Mathew Packer after two or three interviews made and signed a statement in writing.

On Saturday night about 11:45 a man and woman came, he says, to his shop window, and asked for some fruit. The man was middle-aged, perhaps 35 years; about 5ft. 7in. in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking. The woman was middle-aged, wore a dark dress and jacket, and had a white flower in her bosom. It was a dark night, and the only light was afforded by an oil lamp which Packer had burning inside his window, but he obtained a sufficiently clear view of the faces of the two people as they stood talking close in front of the window, and his attention was particularly caught by the white flower which the woman wore, and which showed out distinctly against the dark material of her jacket.
The man asked his companion whether she would have black or white grapes; she replied,
“Black.”
“Well, what’s the price of the black grapes,” old man?” he inquired.
“The black are 6d. and the white 4d.,” replied Packer.
“Well, then, old man, give us half a pound of the black,” said the man.
Packer served him with the grapes, which he handed to the woman. They then crossed the road and stood on the pavement almost directly opposite to the shop for a long time — more than half-an-hour. It will be remembered that the night was very wet, and Packer naturally noticed the peculiarity of the couple’s standing so long in the rain. He observed to his wife,
“What fools those people are to be standing in the rain like that!”
At last the couple moved from their position and Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then 10 or 15 minutes past 12 o’clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public-houses had been closed.

With a view of testing the accuracy and honesty of Packer’s testimony, the detectives obtained an order to view the body of the woman murdered in Mitre Square, and took Packer to see it, leaving him under the impression that they were taking him to see the Berner Street victim. On seeing the body he at once declared that it was not the woman for whom the grapes had been bought, and not a bit like her.

That last bit is brilliant!

[Michael W Richards]

Hi NBFN,

To address your questions...

I'm still not quite sure how all the rapid planning is actually supposed to help.
Why not just do what they said they did - go for help and cooperate?

Because its my opinion that they waited 15 minutes or so before doing that, and that Stride was still alive when found. Delay in this case equals complicity. She bled to death.

At the time, the idea that Stride's murderer had been interrupted, seems to have caught on pretty quickly - that's what counts.
What the evidence points to now, is irrelevant. No?

It is, and always has been a theory that is used to explain the obviously missing "ripping".

This locking down of the site (40 Berner St), consisted of what, other than closing the gates and informing everyone present to stay put?
It wasn't quite Fort Knox level security, was it? The backdoor could have easily been used, and as you say, who knows who snuck away after the murder, but before the lockdown?

The gates were closed, the front door was locked...there was no other way to access the street. the murderer was likely among the men still there, or he was shuffled off before the police came onsite.

I think the club pulled-off the double event, with the minor exception of the GSG.

I don't see that myself.

The graffito hints at resentment, perhaps owing to an unequal sharing of risk and reward. JtR wanted to leave a (premeditated) hint, without giving the game away, perhaps so that just in case he ever gets caught, he doesn't go down alone.

My take on the GSG is that Kates killer isn't about to take blame for the murder when Berner Street and let the Jews evade blamed for it.

My opinion about what happened there that night isn't shared by many, but Im comfortable with it anyway.

Someone at that club killed Liz, likely in a momentary fit of anger, and the senior club members who discover this...knowing that the general public saw them as anarchists and likely terrorists, knew that the murder would cause the club to be closed, and that each member there would be investigated. They chose to frame their stories in a way that makes someone from the club as the murderer less likely. Israel was the cherry on top Sunday night...appropriate metaphor, since it was "Sundae". The GSG was written by Kates murderer and the apron section and the message were left there specifically because the Model Homes were almost exclusively Immigrant Jew tenants, and I believe at least one known member of the Berner club lived there.

That's my "conspiracy theory" wild idea. They just tried to save their asses from persecution. Damage control.

Problem is, aside from creating an alternate truth... if Im correct, is that Liz Stride just bled to death while they decided what to do.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I read that and just posted it, but the point was that where would this paper in Maryland get the idea she had been hit with "powerful blows" leaving "jagged wounds"? It doesn't seem to be in the details by Phillips, but this mud "matting" does. Is it possible that there were wounds beneath the mud and or mud/blood?

Would the hair be removed, prior to the removal of the scalp, at the autopsy?
As for the "matting", could that be the result of long, wet hair, that rarely gets combed?
Wasn't she after a clothes brush, before going out that evening?
Perhaps she just lacked a few essentials, including brushes and combs.
Oh, and a toothbrush!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Because its my opinion that they waited 15 minutes or so before doing that, and that Stride was still alive when found. Delay in this case equals complicity. She bled to death.

If delay equals complicity, then they should try some first aid, while other go for help, immediately. No?

It is, and always has been a theory that is used to explain the obviously missing "ripping".

Who was the first to suggest it?
Selling the idea of interruption, immediately after the event, would in today's language be called 'anchoring'.

The gates were closed, the front door was locked...there was no other way to access the street. the murderer was likely among the men still there, or he was shuffled off before the police came onsite.

They were on their home ground, too.

My take on the GSG is that Kates killer isn't about to take blame for the murder when Berner Street and let the Jews evade blamed for it.

Similar to how I see it, except that I think the frustration was already there - the cutting of the apron feels to me like a plan made prior to arrival at Mitre Square.

My opinion about what happened there that night isn't shared by many, but Im comfortable with it anyway.

How do you suppose Jack became cognizant of the beat periods in Mitre Square, without looking suspicious while stalking the place beforehand?

Hello, hello, hello

Or did he just wait outside it that night, like he had waited in the rain with Liz?
Otherwise, he must have spotted Eddowes at just the right moment.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

More from Ripperologist 96...

In the account in the Daily News for October 1, Diemschűtz is fairly specific about what he saw:

She [Elizabeth Stride] had dark clothes on, and wore a black crepe bonnet. Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.

His statement is hardly ambiguous and would seem to support the suggestion that there were grapes in Elizabeth’s hand.
Isaac Kozebrodsky, speaking to the same reporter, was equally certain of what he witnessed that night.

While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom.

Mrs Mortimer confirmed:

The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.

Three independent witnesses, all stating that they saw grapes in Elizabeth’s hand directly after her murder. An important point here is that Diemschűtz and Kozebrodsky both state that they saw the grapes in her hand while ‘the doctor’ was examining Elizabeth’s body. How could so many witnesses get it wrong? It’s impossible to say, but their statements conflict with other, more solid witness testimony.

I think 'the doctor' was actually someone from the club, who decided that having something in each hand would seem very odd indeed, so removed the grapes before any non-club person arrived. This interference with the body could explain how partially congealed blood got onto the back of the right hand.
Interesting that Fanny described seeing the body leaning slightly to the left, but all other accounts have the body completely rolled onto its left side. This also suggests tampering with the body.
Note also how Fanny is never kept away from the body, even though this is a murder scene at a club she is not a member of.
I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

[c.d.]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

I think cd that NBFN is concerned about the grapes in this instance, more than who killed her. There are 3 witnesses that saw them, we have to accept those accounts …but we are not obliged to accept it as fact. He seems to think someone removed the grapes before Blackwell got there, because he didn't note them.

I will admit that when a number of witnesses see the same thing one has to wonder whether they were all wrong, or all correct.

[Michael W Richards]

More from Ripperologist 96...

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

I doubt that very much, she is on record complaining about the noise and "low men" often heard and seen in the passageway after a meeting. Interestingly, based on the club staff witnesses, not one person was in that passageway, including Stride, from 12:35 until Louis says he arrived at 1. On just this meeting night...no-one gets a breath of air, has a smoke in the alley, …..?

[Michael W Richards]

Would the hair be removed, prior to the removal of the scalp, at the autopsy?
As for the "matting", could that be the result of long, wet hair, that rarely gets combed?
Wasn't she after a clothes brush, before going out that evening?
Perhaps she just lacked a few essentials, including brushes and combs.
Oh, and a toothbrush!

On the last bit, people didn't brush their teeth..most used paste or powders on cloth to clean them.

[DJA]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

As Saturday night,Sunday morning has now become Sundae night ......


Rocky Horror Time Warp - YouTube

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm pretty sure Fanny was in the pocket of the club.

Good Lord! The club has now become more powerful than the Mafia and the Illuminati combined. Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

c.d.

The club had 75-80 members, and some of them were quite interesting characters.
They were all dedicated Socialists (pretty much a requirement of membership).
Most of them were Jewish, not all (that was not a requirement), and relations with the conservative local Jewish community, were not good.
Possibly "Lipski!" was a reference to an orthodox Jew, used as a slur - spoken by a radical Jew.

I don't see anything wrong with supposing that the club may have slipped Fanny some coin to keep her onside.
What else would explain her inability to notice post-12:30 arrivals to the club, Stride sitting with man served by Packer, and of course the whole Schwartz incident?
She seems to be oddly familiar with Mr & Mrs Diemschutz, and her statements closely match Louis' (arrival time and grapes).
It's all so suspicious.

To answer your question...

Is there anything they were not capable of doing?

The club wanted radical socio-political change, and decided to draw attention to the conditions in the East End, and embarrass the establishment in the process.
It could be argued they succeeded spectacularly.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think cd that NBFN is concerned about the grapes in this instance, more than who killed her. There are 3 witnesses that saw them, we have to accept those accounts …but we are not obliged to accept it as fact. He seems to think someone removed the grapes before Blackwell got there, because he didn't note them.

I will admit that when a number of witnesses see the same thing one has to wonder whether they were all wrong, or all correct.

A third possibility is; correct about what they saw, but not when they saw it, and who they saw doing it

[NotBlamedForNothing]

On the last bit, people didn't brush their teeth..most used paste or powders on cloth to clean them.

Yes, but it was a just a joking reference to the cachous

[Joshua Rogan]

"With a view of testing the accuracy and honesty of Packer’s testimony, the detectives obtained an order to view the body of the woman murdered in Mitre Square, and took Packer to see it, leaving him under the impression that they were taking him to see the Berner Street victim. On seeing the body he at once declared that it was not the woman for whom the grapes had been bought, and not a bit like her."

That last bit is brilliant!

It's not a bad idea, but it very much relies on Packer not having read anything about the murders before then. All the details of both murders were published well before his identification atempt, so if he had read them it proves nothing about his honesty. Upon finding himself being unexpectedly taken to the City mortuary and confonted by a corpse with a horribly mutilated face, he wouldn't need to be a genius to work out that this wasn't the Berner Street victim, who'd escaped mutilation (presumably because Louis had interrupted himself).