A Whip and a Prod

[DJA]

Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman.


From there on Spooner's alleged testimony is a complete shambles.

[DJA]

Talking of testimony shambles ,these two lying clowns are the equivalent rank of Henry Smith, RL Stevenson's cousin, and Charles Warren,ex Royal Engineer.

Overland changes evidence, says Nixon knew of Lawyer X

[Michael W Richards]

Notblamed, You said.. "

I do so, based on this concept; what is the least deception that can reasonably be supposed (or argued for), that explains the conflicting times and observations?"

My response would be that the people that relied on the club for income and were at that spot at close to the same time would have discussed what to do in response. The implication of a dead woman found on the premises of a Immigrant Jews Socialist club would be ruinous for what might have remained of its reputation by that time, immediately following a month long door to door search of Immigrant Jews for the killer at large. The time it takes to arrange a strategy doesn't allow for broadly informing all the other members of a strategy, hence, we have multiple members giving statements that contradict most of the paid staffs times.

Louis arrives when 4 corresponding accounts say he was there, not when he alone says so, and from that point in time only Issak K is sent out for help before Diemshutz, Issacs and Eagle head out after 1. Using that as a foundation means that Lave,...lives there...Eagle, paid speaker,...and Diemshutz,..steward,.. all lied. The paid members.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Michael,
you will have to help me understand the actual strategy you think was concocted after the body was found (or I will have to read more of your older posts).
Why would lying about times be a useful means of avoiding suspicion?
If the club were innocent (which I take as being your position), why not prove innocence by doing as claimed and to some extent, verified - send out multiple parties to search for police, and cooperate with police and doctors, on site?

Having asked those questions, I would agree that protecting the club's reputation would have been competing for prominence in the minds of the club members, that night.
In fact, thinking about this just now made me realize something very important...

There has of course been decades of debate as to the inclusion of the Stride murder, as a JtR murder.
Also of course, the main argument against is the lack of mutilation and near severing of the head.
However, this argument can be flipped on it's head, and stated:

Nothing could have conceivably done more to save the reputation of the IWMEC, than the timing and nature of the Mitre Square murder

The Eddowes murder was an absolute godsend for the club.
It is precisely because of this, that suspicion should fall (or remain) on the club and it's members.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just another point regarding Fanny Mortimer, and the 'Principle of least deception'.

During the 12:30-12:50 period, Fanny claims to have been both inside and out, but more out than in.
So this gives her plenty of opportunity to glance at the inside clock - assuming of course, that she has one on a wall or a mantle piece.
Therefore, her sense of the correct time should have been really quite accurate in that 20 minute period.

So then we have to deal with the measured/heavy footsteps "issue".
These are supposed to occur "just before a quarter-to-one" - let's say 12:43.
Attributing these footsteps to PC Smith, of course creates a big problem.
When PC Smith's reported times are regarded as fairly accurate, we having him going by Fanny's door at say, 12:36.
That would put Fanny out by a whopping 7 minutes.
Or we could just imagine it was someone else's footsteps.

That is the whole beauty of it!
Fanny is not actually aware of anything going outside in that 20 minute period, and the timing of the footsteps is just a stab in the dark.
Outside footsteps are such a regular and innocuous occurrence, that it doesn't matter if she gets the time wrong.
Saying she heard footsteps at around 12:43, and adding that shortly after she goes outside, is really just a clumsy way of "sewing" an extra 20 minutes onto the 10 minute vigil, that did occur.

The whole point of it was to cast doubt on the incident seen by Schwartz - that is, the murder.
In contrast to faking a witness and attempting to fool Scotland Yard, all they had to do was slip Fanny a fiver (so to speak), in exchange for her claiming to be outside for most of that half-hour, and see almost nothing.

That fiver is still paying dividends in 2020.
On the hand, was the bit about the man with a bag who looked over his shoulder at the club, meant to be a little hint, she slipped through?

[Michael W Richards]

Just to address a couple of points...

Michael,you will have to help me understand the actual strategy you think was concocted after the body was found (or I will have to read more of your older posts). Why would lying about times be a useful means of avoiding suspicion?[/B]

I believe that its entirely possible that Louis came to the gates after 12:35 and before 12:45 and found that a woman was struggling with someone or that someone just had their throat slit by the gates. He goes into damage control mode, summons his closest staff associates to the passageway, and uses the apprentice Issac K to be the first person sent for help. While the junior member does that, Louis, Eagle, Lave and whomever has status at the club discuss how this is to be presented to the authorities, and its decided that no-one saw anything, Louis didn't get there until just before he and Eagle go for help after 1am, and that no-one was in that passageway from 12:30 until after 1am...other than Liz and her killer of course. That presupposes that maybe 10 minutes go by while they organize a response. I think that extra time was because they knew how the neighbors and the police viewed the people who attended that club, and that negative perception might well work against them if the truth is unclear about whether an onsite Immigrant Jew killed her. That's where Israel, a friend of Wess's, comes in. Outsider..off site, anti-Semitic assailant.

The Eddowes murder was an absolute godsend for the club.
It is precisely because of this, that suspicion should fall (or remain) on the club and it's members.

I don't agree with that interpretation in the last line, but as a coincidental element, it surely wasn't planned to be like that. Although the GSG might be the blame that is missing.

I think when Eddowes is found Liz suddenly becomes the interrupted Ripper murder, when in fact the evidence suggests that Pollys actually was. But that second murder, (of three throat slittings that night in the area), suggests that the killer wasn't someone from the club, because when the police got there they locked down the site. No one left until interviewed. So...no club member then went off to kill Kate.

What is possible though, going down that road, is that a club member did kill Liz and was hustled off the premises and shooed away before the cops get there. He then could go anywhere else and kill another person if he wanted to.

[Michael W Richards]

Just reading through some press, and in the Frederick News from Maryland in the States I read this...Oct 2nd...Has anyone else read this before...."The throat of the victim had been cut from ear to ear with one clean stroke, and instead of disembowelling her the murderer had finished his bloody work by giving her several powerful blows upon the head with a blunt instrument, which left its marks in deep, jagged gashes."

Now Phillips only said this about her head... "There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head. ' Was that actually mud matted in her head, which I presume he meant "hair". Or mud/blood?

[DJA]

The Daily Telegraph's version of the Inquest ........

Dr Phillips ...... Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.

[Michael W Richards]

The Daily Telegraph's version of the Inquest ........

Dr Phillips ...... Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.

I read that and just posted it, but the point was that where would this paper in Maryland get the idea she had been hit with "powerful blows" leaving "jagged wounds"? It doesn't seem to be in the details by Phillips, but this mud "matting" does. Is it possible that there were wounds beneath the mud and or mud/blood?

[Joshua Rogan]

I read that and just posted it, but the point was that where would this paper in Maryland get the idea she had been hit with "powerful blows" leaving "jagged wounds"? It doesn't seem to be in the details by Phillips, but this mud "matting" does. Is it possible that there were wounds beneath the mud and or mud/blood?

Maybe she was bludgeoned with some grapes?

[DJA]

Prolly a whole bunch of 'em.

Musta stalked her for a while beforehand.

[Michael W Richards]

Maybe she was bludgeoned with some grapes?

Id actually prefer that to the nonsense bludgeoning's here.

Seems like I wont get an answer to my very simple question..why a report claimed blunt force trauma wounds on Liz...perhaps that journalist prefers the unsupported "facts"..just like many of our members.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

There's a Shropshire paper gives an account of Liz shouting at BS man and scaring him off. News circulated slower and differently then, I guess some details change along the path.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

I read that and just posted it, but the point was that where would this paper in Maryland get the idea she had been hit with "powerful blows" leaving "jagged wounds"?

From the less than factual reporting of the New York World (front page, Monday, 1 October, 1888.) It also reported that Stride's throat was cut from ear to ear and that part of Eddowes' intestine was wrapped around her throat. Both are wrong.

Wolf.

[Michael W Richards]

From the less than factual reporting of the New York World (front page, Monday, 1 October, 1888.) It also reported that Stride's throat was cut from ear to ear and that part of Eddowes' intestine was wrapped around her throat. Both are wrong.

Wolf.

Thanks Wolf for the response. I asked because of the wording of that article..."powerful blows", "jagged wounds"..not just hit on the head leaving wounds. As for the length of Strides cut, depends on the vantage point of the witness I would think. It might appear to go from ear to ear.