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A Whip and a Prod

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  • #76
    >>... please provide evidence where the cart was described in enough detail ...<<

    Click image for larger version

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    dustymiller
    aka drstrange

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    • #77
      Use of the barrow as a stall (which makes sense), provides further evidence against the cart using a central and raised seating position.
      Consequently, the photo used at the top of this thread - and the seating position described - would seem to be the best approximation to the truth, so far.
      Therefore, unless someone can point out a mistake with dimensions or calculations, the most probable case is:

      The whip handle never touched the body
      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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      • #78
        Misunderstanding the evidence is one thing, deliberately ignoring it is another.
        dustymiller
        aka drstrange

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        • #79
          At least he is not simply making it up from a fertile imagination

          Welcome back Dusty. Trust you enjoyed your weekend.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #80
            Just had the cliche hail stones the size of cricket balls here in Melbourne!
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange

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            • #81
              First they tried moving the deck chair.
              Now they cling desperately to a piece of the wreckage.
              The truth is though, their ship is sinking, and some of the old-timers are going down with her.

              Click image for larger version

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              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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              • #82
                Meh,just journos overcompensating Dusty
                Last edited by DJA; 01-19-2020, 06:45 AM.
                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                • #83
                  Suspect this donkey cart was privately owned for transport.

                  Photo taken at Metropolitan Cattle Market, Islington.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by DJA; 01-19-2020, 07:12 AM.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #84
                    Couple of Irish donkey carts.
                    Attached Files
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                    • #85
                      >> First they tried moving the deck chair.<<

                      An apt post.

                      The moving of deck chairs was an urban myth and Rose was a fictional character.

                      Serious study maybe old fashioned, but it's still the only thing that produces worthwhile results.
                      dustymiller
                      aka drstrange

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                      • #86
                        From Der Arbiter Freint

                        At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasn’t able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm.

                        The whole articles well worth a read. Fair to assume it's probably about as accurate an account as any. Matches his inquest statement.
                        Why are we still going on about this donkey and cart anyway?
                        Thems the Vagaries.....

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
                          Why are we still going on about this donkey and cart anyway?
                          Well for a start, consider something Dusty said to me:

                          As has already been shown to you. Diemshitz prodded Mrs Stride with his whip THEN parked his cart and went back. Baxter understood this, the jury understood this and just about everyone bar you understands this.
                          So take it from an authority on the matter (or at least someone with good comprehension skills); Diemschutz didn't only prod the body, strike a match, and then run excitedly into the club. No - you see, after he prods the body, he left (that is, drove) the cart a few yards down the lane (near to where Jack was hiding), then goes back to the object and lights the match, and only then does he rush inside.
                          Everyone seems to understand this except you and I!
                          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                            >>The point is though, that he claims to have touched the body and failed unsuccessfully to lift it, from his cart (and says so on multiple occasions). Therefore we have to hold him to that. Remember also, that Louis says he had actually past the body, when this occurs. How far past? 1foot? 3ft? 6ft?<<

                            Yet again, you HAVE to read what was actually written.

                            Diemshitz says no such thing. What he is reported as saying, is,

                            "I came into the gate, my pony shied to the left. That caused me to turn my head down to the ground on my right to see what it was that had made him shy.

                            Could you see anything?-I could see that there was something unusual on the pavement. I could not see what it was. It was a dark object. There was nothing white about it. I did not get off the barrow, but I tried with my whip handle to feel what it was. I tried to lift it up ..."


                            Diemshitz describes the whip incident as happening when the enters the gate. He specifically says he looks down NOT back and that the object is on his right NOT behind him.

                            He then tells the jury he gets down and strikes a match and rushes inside the club. He doesn't make it clear when he gets down or where his pony and barrow are when he gets down, so he was asked,

                            "What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. "

                            So we know he parked his cart by the backdoor. We also know WHEN he parked it by the backdoor,

                            "The barrow was past the body when I got down to see what it was."

                            "By the Jury-It would have been quite possible for a man to have escaped from the yard while I was driving up to the club door ..."

                            According to Diemshitz's reported testimony, he was level with Mrs Strides body when he used his whip and he was past the body when he got down. Two incidents are separate.

                            Any other interpretation is invention and not supported by what was actually written.
                            Well let's see about that...

                            From the pony's shying to the left, Diemschutz infers there must be something to the right, which is distracting or worrying to the pony.
                            Pony is still moving forward...

                            Diemschutz looks to his right (or more specifically, to the area just ahead, that seems to be the issue for the pony).
                            Pony is still moving forward...

                            Diemschutz makes out some dark, unidentifiable object.
                            Pony is still moving forward...

                            Diemschutz decides to stop.

                            Where does he stop, in relation to the body? Was it:
                            • just prior to
                            • inline with
                            • just past

                            Let's see what he says at the inquest:

                            [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it?
                            [Diemschutz] I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
                            What this means is that it was only the shying of the pony that had Diemschutz looking forward and to his right (the pony's immediate right).
                            He tries to make out the object in the dark, but cannot.
                            All the while the pony is still pulling the cart along.
                            By the time he decides to stop, he has passed the body.
                            In other words, he nearly goes right on by the body, as anyone else would have if the shying of the pony had not alerted them to that thing on the right.
                            It is true that Diemschutz does not say that the body is over his right shoulder when he stops, but he doesn't have to - it can be inferred from his other statements.
                            He then prods the body (or claims to).
                            What he does not then do is:
                            • restart the pony
                            • jump down, strike match, remount pony, restart pony

                            He do we know he does not do either of these?

                            [Diemschutz] I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
                            [Coroner] You did not disturb it?
                            [Diemschutz] No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
                            So the sequence of events here is:
                            1. He reaches out to touch the object with whip handle (succeeds)
                            2. He attempts to lift the object with whip handle (fails)
                            3. He jumps down and strikes match to get a better view

                            There is no movement of pony and cart beyond the initial stopping position.
                            Over the next hour, up to 30 people gather around the body.
                            So:
                            Where is the pony and cart? They seemed to have disappeared!

                            How does Diemschutz explain this anomaly?

                            [Coroner] What did you do with the pony?
                            [Diemschutz] I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.
                            He gets away with this vague answer.
                            He is still getting away with it nearly 132 years later.
                            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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                            • #89
                              Re this statement:

                              "By the Jury-It would have been quite possible for a man to have escaped from the yard while I was driving up to the club door ..."
                              The 'club door' is the front door.
                              Why would Diemschutz refer to the side door as the club door?
                              Club door refers to the official entrance, not some door along a lane at the side of the building.
                              Diemschutz is suggesting that Jack makes his escape just before he enters the lane.

                              Think about these dimensions:

                              lane width: 280cm
                              cart width : 100cm (close enough to)

                              If the cart goes up the middle of the lane, the Ripper has 90cm (3ft) to work with, on either side of the cart.
                              How could Diemschutz possibly miss someone ducking by in that amount of space?
                              More to the point, how could he possibly suppose that Scotland Yard would not find a story like that, highly suspicious?
                              Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

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                              • #90
                                The Jewish paper makes an interesting read and helps to build a picture of things that night. I don't think it matters a great deal is Diemschutz strikes a match on the cart or not, the sentiment stays the same throughout the different reports.
                                I also think that there's no mention of the ponies whereabouts as there were somewhat more pressing matters.
                                The Arbiter Freint describes the club members running around like poisoned mice looking for an antidote, not unreasonable to think someone moved the pony down the yard.
                                Thems the Vagaries.....

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