A Whip and a Prod

[c.d.]

If Scharwtz is to be believed, there was most defiantly a struggle. However.. one thing has always stuck out to me in Schwartz' statement. Schwartz claims that: 'the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.' Maybe Stride didn't scream out loudly because she couldn't, because her throat had already been cut or she had been throttled during the struggle with BS Man or Jack or whomever.


Hello Dusty,

Welcome to the boards.

Schwartz only said he saw a woman pushed to the ground. I don't think that qualifies as a "struggle." Schwartz had to have seen Stride alive when he left the scene otherwise Swanson would not have allowed for the possibility in his report of her killer coming along later.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The matted mud on strides body doesn't necessarily mean that she was killed somewhere else in the yard or street [...]

Agreed, although a yard wet and muddy from prolonged rain earlier in the evening, would seem to be an ideal candidate.

[...] it could simply indicate there was a struggle during or before her throat was cut.

I wouldn't dismiss this possibility out of hand, but it faces these issues ...

• Pictures of 40 Berner, indicate the cobblestone lane extended all the way to the street. Unless the lane itself were somehow covered in dirt (which turned to mud on the night), where does Stride actually fall, to pick up all this mud?
• How does Stride fall, so that all down one side gets very muddy, but hardly anywhere else?
• The pattern of bruising on the body, is not really consistent with a struggle (only of being grabbed and held)
• Clothes were not disheveled, and there were no abrasions to hands or knees (that would be indicative of a fall)

If Scharwtz is to be believed, there was most defiantly a struggle.

How does that gel with the points above?
More fundamentally; Schwartz sees a struggle - between who?
Why is everyone 100% sure that the woman Schwartz sees thrown to the ground, is in fact Liz Stride?
See my post #161
If BS pulls the woman out onto the street and away from within the gates, where does the woman want to be, and why?
The area of the lane, from the gates to the side door, was very dark.
Makes you wonder what the woman of Schwartz' testimony is interested in, in there.
A woman lying bleeding to death, perhaps?

However.. one thing has always stuck out to me in Schwartz' statement. Schwartz claims that: 'the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.' Maybe Stride didn't scream out loudly because she couldn't, because her throat had already been cut or she had been throttled during the struggle with BS Man or Jack or whomever.

On the other hand, if the woman Schwartz sees, is indeed Liz, then I would suggest the very tight scarf is like a noose around her neck.
That would explain the contradiction of screaming - loud by definition - but not very loudly.
I don't buy the idea that (JtR) pulling on the scarf could tighten it at the same time.
Someone has reapplied the scarf so tightly that she can't talk or scream properly, and therefore someone(s) else must have a hold of her, at the time.
Dr Phillips couldn't explain very well how Liz was prevented from making loud noises, prior to the throat slash.
A hand over the mouth while someone quickly applies the "noose" would seem to explain how they kept her quiet enough for long enough.
There are other issues with actually cutting the throat in the location she was found, but that's enough for this post.

[DustyBones]

The matted hair and muddied clothing on the left side says its most probable she was cut somewhere other than where she fell, because if she had been laying in a pile of mud, Dr Phillips would surely have mentioned this, but he didn't.

The matted mud on strides body doesn't necessarily mean that she was killed somewhere else in the yard or street, it could simply indicate there was a struggle during or before her throat was cut.
If Scharwtz is to be believed, there was most defiantly a struggle. However.. one thing has always stuck out to me in Schwartz' statement. Schwartz claims that: 'the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.' Maybe Stride didn't scream out loudly because she couldn't, because her throat had already been cut or she had been throttled during the struggle with BS Man or Jack or whomever.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The blood flow in the gutter says its most probable she was cut and bled out where she fell.

The matted hair and muddied clothing on the left side says its most probable she was cut somewhere other than where she fell, because if she had been laying in a pile of mud, Dr Phillips would surely have mentioned this, but he didn't.

The conundrums of the murder cannot just be ignored, and there is plenty of "scope" for blood flow, once having quickly moved the body.

Louis Diemschutz (The Evening Standard, October 1): My pony is frisky and apt to shy, though not much, and it struck me when I was passing through the double gates into the yard that he wanted to keep too much to the left side against the wall. I could not make out what was the matter, so I bent my head to see if there were anything to frighten him. Then I noticed there was something unusual about the ground, but I could not tell what it was, except that it was not level. I mean there was something there like a little heap; but I thought it was only mud, or something of the kind, and I did not take much notice of it; still I touched it with my whip, and then I was able to tell it was not mud.

Diemschutz' mention of mud is indicative of the real murder details, "leaking through" into his fictional account.

[JeffHamm]

Actually Jeff I don't see it that way myself, if anything it might have been a co-conspirator, BSM to Pipeman, nod towards Schwartz, indicating...hey look Pipeman, we have a Lipksi here. Lipski being perceived as a negative commentary or slur upon local Jews after the previous years event.

In my opinion the main objective of how Israel frames his story is to present an off site assailant, we could argue the semantics of the Lipski aspect, but the real value he has is placing the likely killer with the victim off the premises. I don't really see any objection to the real story being that he left the club through the side door, while in the passageway he sees a man and a woman struggling near the open gates, on the inside, and he hustles around them to leave. He was at the meeting and left shortly after his friend Wess did. That would work fine I believe, and provide Israel with a much better story than he was "seeing if his wife had finished moving"...at 12:45am. 12 hours after he left her for the market.

Well, that's how the home office took it, as did the police (they were looking for people by the name of Lipski based upon Schwartz's statement). Abberline, however, suggested Schwartz was probably mistaken, and it was an insult directed at Schwartz. However, given Schwartz's testimony, they followed up and searched for the local Lipski families. Hence, Schwartz's story doesn't direct attention away from a Jewish offender but towards one, and therefore does not fit the conspiracy objective. Schwartz, therefore, cannot be part of it - he could be wrong of course, but he's not part of the conspiracy, his testimony refutes that possibility.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Juxtaposing those quotes against the following, really gets the noggin' joggin'



Did they cut Stride's throat in the back yard, rake over the evidence, and then carry her down to near the gates?...

... on an old blanket?

They could have found the evidence, if they'd had Burgho and Barnaby ...

The blood flow in the gutter says its most probable she was cut and bled out where she fell.

[DJA]

Star Hotel - Live at Manly Vale 1980 - YouTube

GUT might be out that way,roughly speaking.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's a beautiful town, although the night life is a bit dull

[DJA]

Bob Hudson - The Newcastle song (Full version) - YouTube

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Newcastle

[DJA]

Are you from Sydney?

(Ultimate Australian insult courtesy of Los Trio Ringbarkus )

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Daily Telegraph's version of the Inquest ........

Dr Phillips ...... Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.

Phillips: Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

Juxtaposing those quotes against the following, really gets the noggin' joggin'

Dr Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.

PC Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

Did they cut Stride's throat in the back yard, rake over the evidence, and then carry her down to near the gates?...

... on an old blanket?

They could have found the evidence, if they'd had Burgho and Barnaby ...

[DJA]

Pipeman was possibly Louis Hagens having a knock off smoke after a long day operating The Nelson Public House.

[Michael W Richards]

…. However, his statement implies "pipeman's name" might have been Lipski - and this was certainly the view of home office at the time, and the police did search for all families with that name in the area."


- Jeff

Actually Jeff I don't see it that way myself, if anything it might have been a co-conspirator, BSM to Pipeman, nod towards Schwartz, indicating...hey look Pipeman, we have a Lipksi here. Lipski being perceived as a negative commentary or slur upon local Jews after the previous years event.

In my opinion the main objective of how Israel frames his story is to present an off site assailant, we could argue the semantics of the Lipski aspect, but the real value he has is placing the likely killer with the victim off the premises. I don't really see any objection to the real story being that he left the club through the side door, while in the passageway he sees a man and a woman struggling near the open gates, on the inside, and he hustles around them to leave. He was at the meeting and left shortly after his friend Wess did. That would work fine I believe, and provide Israel with a much better story than he was "seeing if his wife had finished moving"...at 12:45am. 12 hours after he left her for the market.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Who let an enterprising journalist in here? Obviously trying to drum up excitement since it's been non controversial for a few weeks now.

So, you want some controversy, huh?
Well, I'll give you controversy, mister.
[evil laughter ]

Elizabeth Stride: Her Killer and Time of Death
On 2 October, Dr Blackwell testified at the inquest that Elizabeth would have been dead between twenty to thirty minutes before he arrived at 1:16. This would place Elizabeth's time of death between 12:46 and 12:56. Plus, on 3 October, Dr Phillips testified that Elizabeth died within an hour of his arrival. But when did he arrive at the scene? Dr Blackwell arrived at 1:16am and believed that Dr Phillips arrived at the scene twenty to thirty minutes after he did. This would place Dr Phillips' arrival between 1:36 and 1:46. At 1:45, however, Inspector Reid arrived at Dutfield's Yard, and Dr Phillips was already with the body. Giving Dr Phillips some time to get into the yard, greet Dr Blackwell, and begin looking at the body prior Insp Reid's arrival, we should be able to safely estimate that Dr Phillips arrived between 1:36 and 1:44. This would mean that Dr Phillips estimated that Elizabeth died no earlier than between 12:36 and 12:44.

So according to the estimates of these two doctors, Liz died at around 12:45 (average of 12:40 & 12:51).

Schwartz via Swanson: 12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen Street [Ellen St], Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour turning into Berner Street from Commercial Road & having gotten as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

So how long would it have taken Schwartz to walk from the corner of Commercial Rd & Berner St, to No 40 Berner?
3 minutes? 5 minutes? 8 minutes?
We should probably assume that if Schwartz' estimate of the time is fairly accurate, then he reaches the gates no earlier than 12:50.
Relative to the estimated murder time, that would place Schwartz at least 5 minutes late or "behind time".

Schwartz (continues): He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

So tell me, who is "the woman" Schwartz refers to?

The woman Schwartz sees thrown to the ground, could not have been Liz Stride, because by the time this occurs, Liz is already lying dead in the gutter