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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    For the writer of the article to be jovial on this point, while avoiding any ambiguity, supposes that the readership of the Star would 'just know' that the paper could not possibly have a reporter on the staff who could speak some Hungarian.
    Why take the risk that some people could read him literally?
    Because one of the objectives of a newspaper is to sell papers, and entertaining the readership with clever quips is one way do try and do that?
    Why not just say 'he was run to earth in Backchurch Lane, and we spoke to him via an interpreter'?
    see above
    By the way, why was Schwartz in Backchurch Lane? Doesn't he now live at 22 Ellen St?
    Have no idea as there is no report of why he was there given. But, no matter where people go, there they are.
    Perhaps all this 22 something St is something we should be suspicious of - it seems one too many coincidences to me.

    Regarding the interpreter, why was this person 'at hand', when Schwartz was 'run to earth'?
    Did the Star reporter take the interpreter with him?
    While we have been given no explanation, or identity, of the interpreter, it seems likely that they were a friend or associate of Schwartz. Given Schwartz is reported as speaking no English, it seems hardly remarkable that if he's going out to do anything that might entail interacting with others (i.e. shopping of any sort), he might have to bring a friend to help him communicate. I don't know that, obviously, but how else he's supposed to go about his daily business is hard to imagine.
    That would seem logical, as we know the reporter was just being colourful about his 'imperfect' knowledge of Hungarian.
    On the other hand, could this 'at hand' interpreter be the same 'friend' that interpreted for Schwartz at Leman St station?
    If the later, I wonder why the friend allowed Schwartz to tell a substantially different story, than the one he told the prior evening?
    May or may not be the same friend, or may be, as you suggest, the reporter brought one, or there was luckily enough, someone random at hand who just happened to speak Hungarian. Again, we have no information to know which of those is true for sure (if any), but in my mind, a friend of Schwartz's seems most probable (see above).

    As for the difference in the stories, as mentioned before, we don't know where the differences originated from. We don't know for sure if Schwartz told different stories, or if the source of the error is in the police and/or journalist recording of Schwartz's story, or as you suggest, in the translation phase. Any of those could be the case. If I were to pick one as most probable, given the press reports are frequently shown to be full of errors, I would suggest that's the issue (also, see my first point above).

    Also, if the interpreter was in either the first case, or both, a friend of Israel's, how can anything he says be taken seriously?
    It is a completely dodgy situation!
    Without some reason to suspect Schwartz had dodgy friends I'm not sure why this would apply? Why is being a friend of Schwartz an automatic reason not to take his story and/or the translation of it seriously? In many ways, I would think a friend of Schwartz would have more of a reason to ensure Schwartz's story is told correctly, and also would be someone who might have a better understanding of how Schwartz conveys himself, so they might be better at translating his words with intent to meaning.

    A young man being chased away by a clay pipe wielding maniac, who is triggered into action by a man a few doors down apparently yelling an antisemitic slur at the young man who is walking by harmlessly, who both other men can clearly make out to be Jewish, in the darkness, immediately after the man who yells and who has just started talking to a woman standing in a gateway, throws her to the pavement - is a story of pure fantasy.
    That is one theory, but one that has not been proven. It's also a theory that Schwartz witnessed something and his description is a telling of what he believed to be the case.

    Why does anyone take Schwartz and his story, seriously?
    Because he's a potential eye-witness to the crime maybe? And, while no doubt some of his perceptions and memories will be erroneous (as is the case with any witness testimony), it has not been shown that his testimony is fabricated. There is, of course, theories out there based upon that notion, but they are by no means proven.
    It's because it provides the foundation for Louis' story about finding a dead woman in the driveway, 15 minutes later.
    What people cannot or will not realise, is that providing a foundation to Louis' story, is the whole point of it!
    Just because Schwartz's testimony is consistent with Louis' story doesn't mean it had to be fabricated. Also, given that one of the fundamental premises for considering Schwartz's story to be fabricated is to deflect attention away from the offender being Jewish, the fact that Schwartz's testimony was such that it implicates a Jewish offender that notion contradicts itself. Don't forget, Schwartz, in his police statement, believed Lipski was shouted to pipeman and implies that he thought Lipski was pipeman's name - that's the message taken away by the police and they went looking for local families of that name and Home Office was putting a lot of pressure on the police to locate all the Lipski families in the area, etc.

    The notion that "Lipski" was shouted at Schwart as an insult is an alternative interpretation of the events, an interpretation which differs from that supplied by Schwartz, and which originates from Abberline. Basically, Abberline is suggesting we ignore Schwartz's belief and view those events as an insult directed at him. But that wasn't Schwartz's story.

    I'm not saying Schwartz is the best of witnesses, or that his story must be true as he told it. But it's part of the evidence that has to be considered and it can't just be thrown out because it happens to correspond with Louis's statement. Generally, when independent witness statements agree that is usually viewed as corroboration, oddly, in this situation, people seem to view it as suspicious.

    - Jeff
    Last edited by JeffHamm; 02-16-2020, 01:52 AM.

    Comment


    • So are we to believe that the use of "Lipski" was so cleverly concocted by the club members to further their conspiracy that Abberline told his men" don't even bother to question a suspect that may be Jewish even if he is covered in blood and has a bloody knife in his hand as he can't possibly be our man?"

      Is there any evidence at all to show that "Lipski" did in fact impact the investigation in any way?

      c.d.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        So are we to believe that the use of "Lipski" was so cleverly concocted by the club members to further their conspiracy that Abberline told his men" don't even bother to question a suspect that may be Jewish even if he is covered in blood and has a bloody knife in his hand as he can't possibly be our man?"

        Is there any evidence at all to show that "Lipski" did in fact impact the investigation in any way?

        c.d.
        Hi c.d.,

        The police went about trying to track every family by the name of Lipski in the area, knocking on doors, and asking after them. The Home Office was pressuring the police to locate "Lipski" and it convinced some the perpetrator was Jewish. It was Abberline who felt Lipski was a red herring, but despite his view on that, the police did look for Lipski. In that sense, yes, it did impact the investigation.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Thanks, Jeff. I was not aware of a specific Lipski investigation. I guess the point I was trying to make was that the clue was not substantial enough to rule out particular (i.e., Jewish) suspects.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            Thanks, Jeff. I was not aware of a specific Lipski investigation. I guess the point I was trying to make was that the clue was not substantial enough to rule out particular (i.e., Jewish) suspects.

            c.d.
            Hi c.d.,

            Yah, that's true. As Schwartz told it, it tended more to implicate a Jewish offender than rule one out (though Abberline's take was that Schwartz's belef was incorrect and that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz himself). Anyway, the Ultimate includes a number of communications between the police and Home Office, and Home Office was of the belief that locating this "Lipski" was important and was pushing to find out what the police were doing to track him down. That's what eventually prompted Warren (I think it was) to convey to Home Office that, while they were looking for families of that name, it appeared that Lipski was an anti-semitic insult, etc. It had some impact, but I wouldn't say it was to the point it completely distracted the overall investigation, rather, just another lead that was being followed, and also, one that was being considered from a number of potential points of view.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • Swanson's report, regarding Israel Schwartz, begins:

              12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, ...
              So was his address, 22 Ellen Street, or something Backchurch Lane?

              Was Abberline not even capable of getting a non-ambiguous and properly spelled address, out of him?

              The Star report states:

              It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.
              How did the Star reporter come to know that 22 Ellen was incorrect, and that the actual address was in Backchurch Lane?

              Was Schwartz' real address actually 22 Backchurch Lane, were a Sarah Schwartz had been living in 1885?

              Was Schwartz reluctant to give his real address, as apparently was Charles Lechmere also, who eventually gave his address as 22 Doveton Street?

              When Scotland Yard became aware of this anomaly (assuming they read the papers), did they make an effort to clear up the ambiguous address, and/or wonder why the situation had parallels with witness Charles Cross?

              By the way, at what number Berner St, had Schwartz been living?
              Surely not #40 - only a conspiracy theorist would suppose that!

              Schwartz is reported to have said words to the effect of:

              The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.
              Apart from the question as to what moments the woman screamed 3 times, how can the oxymoronic 'screamed three times, but not very loudly', not be seen as Schwartz' attempt to explain why no one heard a thing?

              The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away ...
              Schwartz claimed to know zero English.
              It's important to realize how easy this would be to fake, especially when one turns up to a police station to make a statement, with a friend acting as interpreter.
              Did Abberline take steps to verify that Schwartz knew zero English, or did he just take him at his word?

              The term 'Lipski' had, by 1888, become a well known antisemitic slur, in the East End.
              Was Schwartz aware of this, and if so, does the fact that he has picked-up on this bit of 'culture', suggest that he has been in England for some time?
              Could we then suppose that Schwarz did indeed know at least some English?

              Isaac Kozebrodsky was a recent immigrant from Poland. He was able to make a statement in English.
              Schwartz was also a recent East European immigrant, and I dare say he could have done the same as 'Isaacs'.

              Schwartz admitted to running away from what was about to become a murder scene.
              The 15 minute gap until Diemschutz arrives, helps to make Schwartz look like an innocent witness.
              Too bad the undercover reporter from the Echo, has Wess explaining what really happened, to the effect that:

              There was no 15 minute gap between the murder and discovery of the body!

              Consequently, we have to get serious and answer these two questions:

              Why was Schwartz running away from a murder scene, at the same time that multiple witnesses from the club had seen a man being chased away, who they collectively regarded as being the murderer?

              Why does Louis Diemschutz insist he turned up just after 1 am, when at the same time, PC Smith, standing on Commercial Road, can already see a crowd gathering at the gates of #40?


              God only knows how I could have come up with the following answers to the above, but for what it's worth ...

              The answer to the 2nd question is: Because Louis Diemschutz is attempting to move the murder time forward, by 15 minutes, in an attempt to cover for his friend, Israel Schwartz.

              The answer to the 1st question is: Because Israel Schwartz is Jack the Ripper.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                Swanson's report, regarding Israel Schwartz, begins:



                So was his address, 22 Ellen Street, or something Backchurch Lane?

                Was Abberline not even capable of getting a non-ambiguous and properly spelled address, out of him?

                The Star report states:



                How did the Star reporter come to know that 22 Ellen was incorrect, and that the actual address was in Backchurch Lane?

                Was Schwartz' real address actually 22 Backchurch Lane, were a Sarah Schwartz had been living in 1885?

                Was Schwartz reluctant to give his real address, as apparently was Charles Lechmere also, who eventually gave his address as 22 Doveton Street?

                When Scotland Yard became aware of this anomaly (assuming they read the papers), did they make an effort to clear up the ambiguous address, and/or wonder why the situation had parallels with witness Charles Cross?

                By the way, at what number Berner St, had Schwartz been living?
                Surely not #40 - only a conspiracy theorist would suppose that!

                Schwartz is reported to have said words to the effect of:



                Apart from the question as to what moments the woman screamed 3 times, how can the oxymoronic 'screamed three times, but not very loudly', not be seen as Schwartz' attempt to explain why no one heard a thing?



                Schwartz claimed to know zero English.
                It's important to realize how easy this would be to fake, especially when one turns up to a police station to make a statement, with a friend acting as interpreter.
                Did Abberline take steps to verify that Schwartz knew zero English, or did he just take him at his word?

                The term 'Lipski' had, by 1888, become a well known antisemitic slur, in the East End.
                Was Schwartz aware of this, and if so, does the fact that he has picked-up on this bit of 'culture', suggest that he has been in England for some time?
                Could we then suppose that Schwarz did indeed know at least some English?

                Isaac Kozebrodsky was a recent immigrant from Poland. He was able to make a statement in English.
                Schwartz was also a recent East European immigrant, and I dare say he could have done the same as 'Isaacs'.

                Schwartz admitted to running away from what was about to become a murder scene.
                The 15 minute gap until Diemschutz arrives, helps to make Schwartz look like an innocent witness.
                Too bad the undercover reporter from the Echo, has Wess explaining what really happened, to the effect that:

                There was no 15 minute gap between the murder and discovery of the body!

                Consequently, we have to get serious and answer these two questions:

                Why was Schwartz running away from a murder scene, at the same time that multiple witnesses from the club had seen a man being chased away, who they collectively regarded as being the murderer?

                Why does Louis Diemschutz insist he turned up just after 1 am, when at the same time, PC Smith, standing on Commercial Road, can already see a crowd gathering at the gates of #40?


                God only knows how I could have come up with the following answers to the above, but for what it's worth ...

                The answer to the 2nd question is: Because Louis Diemschutz is attempting to move the murder time forward, by 15 minutes, in an attempt to cover for his friend, Israel Schwartz.

                The answer to the 1st question is: Because Israel Schwartz is Jack the Ripper.
                Ellen Street and Backchurch Lane intersect each other. Abberline's notes would indicates he lived near the intersection of those two streets. Unfortunately, it seems very common for witnesses to give unreliable addresses to the police (it comes up quite often, Ms. Long, from the Chapman case, for example, I think gives 2 or 3 different addresses, and there are a number of witnesses in the newspapers who seem to be the same person but going by different names). It seems to be a common practice, as frustrating as that is today, but it doesn't seem to be sinister.

                I'm afraid a series of unanswered questions doesn't really provide proof that Israel Schwartz is JtR. But good luck with that.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • 22 Ellen Street was 11 doors from Back Church Lane as opposed to Christian Street at the other end.
                  Popular way of giving an address back then.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Schwartz was the ripper all along? The scoundrel!

                    He'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky socialists.
                    Them's the vagaries.

                    Comment


                    • He didn't do it Al, he just egged the socialists on and acted out the innocent party to the police, but then who is going to believe Schwartz an egger as an actor?
                      dustymiller
                      aka drstrange

                      Comment


                      • Maybe he was one half of Diemschutz's pantomime pony? That explains where it went!
                        Them's the vagaries.

                        Comment


                        • I think its time to put the erroneous idea that Lipski want intended to be perceived as a slight to bed, that surname had become a slang slur term for immigrant jews in that neighborhood. Gentiles were the ones who would have been the primary users of it. Israel is clearly a jewish man. We have no idea as to the ethnicity of the so called Pipeman. Almost certainly Abberlines perspective on this story element was accurate, no matter what Israel claims, or was said to have claimed.

                          What was translated for Israel in regards to this call out, or what he supposedly thought the call was directed at really doesn't matter, nor does the call itself, or the story itself. Not if actually solving the case is the goal.

                          Its been pointed out numerous times that the preponderance of witness evidence has people by the dying woman around 12:45. All those witnesses would have to be wrong for anything Israel claims to have actually happened, and it still wouldn't address why they all independently gave roughly the same times and same circumstances. Eagles "couldn't be sure" if a dying woman was there when he walked into the passageway is a clue here. He hedged his bets, not knowing at that point if the discovery time around 12:45 that others would claim would become the fixed point or not. If it came out later that she was there dying at 12:40-12:45, his "couldn't be sure" was insurance.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                            I think its time to put the erroneous idea that Lipski want intended to be perceived as a slight to bed, that surname had become a slang slur term for immigrant jews in that neighborhood. Gentiles were the ones who would have been the primary users of it. Israel is clearly a jewish man. We have no idea as to the ethnicity of the so called Pipeman. Almost certainly Abberlines perspective on this story element was accurate, no matter what Israel claims, or was said to have claimed.

                            What was translated for Israel in regards to this call out, or what he supposedly thought the call was directed at really doesn't matter, nor does the call itself, or the story itself. Not if actually solving the case is the goal.

                            Its been pointed out numerous times that the preponderance of witness evidence has people by the dying woman around 12:45. All those witnesses would have to be wrong for anything Israel claims to have actually happened, and it still wouldn't address why they all independently gave roughly the same times and same circumstances. Eagles "couldn't be sure" if a dying woman was there when he walked into the passageway is a clue here. He hedged his bets, not knowing at that point if the discovery time around 12:45 that others would claim would become the fixed point or not. If it came out later that she was there dying at 12:40-12:45, his "couldn't be sure" was insurance.
                            Hi Michael,

                            While I agree, that Schwartz's belief about Lipski probably won't solve the case, the thing is, it is crucial to the conspiracy theory as it currently stands. Including Schwartz in that conspiracy creates a logical paradox which invalidates the club conspiracy theory that includes Scwartz as a plant, and it does so without any need to even look at any further evidence.

                            Drop Schwartz from the club conspiracy, and maybe it will hang together. Include him as part of it, and it invalidates itself by pure irrationality.

                            That's the reason why Schwartz's interpretation of "Lipski" is important, not because he was right (he probably was mistaken), but because what he reports to the police is the direct opposite of the goals of the hypothesized conspiracy, therefore he cannot be a part of it (but Abberline could be except that if he was there was no need for the conspiracy in the first place, therefore Abberline cannot be part of it either).

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • Hi Jeff, what is translated for Schwartz seems to indicate his belief the call wasn't directed at him, without knowing exactly what he said that was translated, we cant know exactly what his intentions were. And in this scenario, a anti-Semitic slur towards an immigrant jew who happens to come across a burly man assaulting a woman seems far more probable. And reasonable. With knowing Pipemans ethnicity of course. In the story Pipeman chases Israel off, so how does that fit with Pipeman being subjected to an anti Semitic slur...which Lipski certainly was. Abberlines understanding of that fact is far more critical than Israel's translated version, its local knowledge that can be used here.

                              Why would BSM yell an anti-Semitic slur at all, and why wouldn't that be directed at the only known to be immigrant jew in the immediate area? The answer is simple...he only used the phrase due to his becoming aware that an immigrant jew was now watching what he was doing. Which in turn places someone assaulting the soon to be murder victim off the property within minutes of her murder, and provides the investigation with a gentile assailant. Intending to take any possible heat for the crime off the immigrant jews still at the club. The story suggests that perhaps if Israel hadn't wandered by the assault he witnesses it may have become a murder out on the street, and that BSM only used the passageway to get away from prying eyes.

                              The real truth is in the numbers here. 4 people corroborate each other on time and circumstances, and they directly conflict with Israel's story...which no-one saw or heard take place.
                              Michael Richards

                              Comment


                              • Here is a pasted excerpt from Maris post here back in 2011, in General Discussion...something that may well relate to this situation....

                                " the Jewish anarchists of Whitechapel spied by the French secret police

                                10-22-2011, 09:06 AM




                                Hello all.
                                I've just finished going through the French Secret Police reports on the Whitechapel Jewish anarchists having survived in Paris (at the Archives Nationales and at the Archives of the Paris Police Museum), and I've got some interesting information pertaining to a Jewish/Polish/Hungarian anarchist named Schwartz, connected to William Wess in 1902-1905. The Schwartz connection requires additional research and will be discussed in a future publication, but here is a representative sample of a French spy report from May 1903:

                                Paris, 22 May 1903

                                from London

                                The Anarchist Jewish Federation:

                                The Anarchist Jewish Federation definitely operates under the name “The worker's friend“ in Great Britain and in Paris.
                                Communications pertaining to this group are obligatorily addressed to R. ROCKER and G. DAVID, who both reside at Nr. 58, Dunsten Houses, Stepney Green, East London.
                                The origins of this group is a weekly newspaper called “The worker's friend“, published in Hebrew.
                                Pertaining to the Jewish anarchists I'm drawing attention to a handwritten poster hanging in the Russian library at Church Street, conceived as such: “All Jewish revolutionaries can come to Butles Street, Spitalfields, and eat for free.“
                                In the library in question there has also been a new message board erected in favor of the Russian strikers.



                                Michael Richards

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