A Whip and a Prod

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz: Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.

So what was the position of the hands, Louis?

[DJA]

Checking on the wife and securing lighting makes sense to me.
Getting help also makes sense,as she had lost a lot of blood.
The killer might still be nearby.
We don't know if anyone checked her pulse at that time. Wouldn't matter as she was dead.

The throat cut was like a second bullet,just making sure.

Nope.

Not really.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Stride had lost 2 quarts of blood ,including any clot,she would have still been alive and her heart pumping > 140 bpm with BP < 70.

Makes you wonder why no one thought to tend to the body.
Did anyone check for a pulse or make an effort to stop the bleeding?
No - they all ran off in different directions, crying for help. Weird.

Irrelevant as she had been asphyxiated.Phillips' autopsy proved that.

So why did Jack have her laying on her left side, and cut mostly the same side of her throat, with her face 6" from the wall?
Why make it so awkward for himself, when he could have used the lack of blood pressure to his advantage?

Strongly suspect Jack had been waiting for BS Man to vacate the scene.

So you must also have a strong opinion on where Jack had been waiting, and at least some opinion on how this BS Man managed to yell 'Lipski', right outside a predominantly Jewish inhabited club, without anyone hearing him through the multiple open windows and door?

Even if the baker's clock was 5 minutes fast ,Jack had enough time to do his work and depart.

Making the real time, 12:55. Fanny Mortimer???

[DJA]

Argument - Monty Python - YouTube


She had dark clothes and a bonnet on.

She wore dark clothes and a bonnet.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wore is past tense of wear.

She had dark clothes on, and wore a black crape bonnet.

He is talking about what she had on, and what she wore, when observed.

The 'and' ties the two details into a single observation.

[DJA]

Hi Robert.

Stride's feet were 10 feet from the gateway.

Her doubled over body ~ 4 feet.

Another 4 feet to the door.

18 feet.

If BS Man departed ~ 12.45am and the cart arrived at 1am,then the blood must have had time.

Stride's bottom lip and the (death grip between finger and thumb of the) cachous indicates Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia.
She was a bleeder!

[c.d.]

Firstly, we need a thorough and robust model of how the murder was executed.
I think speculating on the cause of the murderer fleeing the scene, is starting midstream, so to speak.

Well N.B.F.N.,

When you get around to addressing that question (sometime around the year 2050 I'm guessing ) I will be quite interested in reading your take on it.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here are some more anomalies...

[Coroner] Was the whole of the body resting on the side?
[Diemschutz] No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways.
[Diemschutz] I did not notice what position her hands were in, but when the police came I observed that her bodice was unbuttoned near the neck.
[Diemschutz] The doctor said the body was quite warm.

Lamb, Blackwell, Phillips and others, all observed the body lying completely turned to the left, and facing the wall. Why didn't Louis?

Louis Diemschutz in the Daily News, Oct 1 (same day as he appeared at the inquest):

When I first saw the woman she was lying on her left side.
Her left hand was on the ground, and the right was crossed over the breast.
Her head was down the yard, and her feet towards the entrance, not more than about a yard or so inside the gates.

Now she is on her left side.
Now he can very well see the position of the hands.

The feet are 2 to 3ft inside the gates, which is interesting given that the gates are each 4'2" wide, in a 10ft wide lane.
So was the lower half of the body overlapping the gates, either on the outer side, or between gate and wall?
Alternatively, were they 2 or 3 feet from the gate, as Eagle had similarly suggested?

So what did PC Lamb have to say about the location of the feet?...

[Lamb] When I got there I had the gates shut.
[Coroner] But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
[Lamb] No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

Has someone moved the body?
Did someone remove the bonnet?
Was that someone caught in the act?
Did that someone run away ... as far as the railway arch?
Did that someone eat the grapes, when they got there?

[Robert St Devil]

If Stride had lost 2 quarts of blood ,including any clot,she would have still been alive and her heart pumping > 140 bpm with BP < 70.

Irrelevant as she had been asphyxiated.Phillips' autopsy proved that.

Strongly suspect Jack had been waiting for BS Man to vacate the scene.Even if the baker's clock was 5 minutes fast ,Jack had enough time to do his work and depart.

I agree on the matter of asphyxiation, Dave – lack of arterial spray, lack of any blood-splashings beyond the rut other than some trodden markings, lack of blood-markings on her clothes, lack of blood-markings on the left side of her body [the side that she was lying-on], condition of the heart based on the autopsy. The People of Sunday 7 October 1888 offers more of her post mortem analysis than those available on Casebook [pic included]. I found an abstract for an article “The Analysis of Pericardial Fluid In Forensic Practice” [Mao, Zheng, Zhu, Zhu] because this particular post-mortem has Dr. Phillips stating that “there was no fluid in the pericardium” and I was curious if this factor was another aspect of death by asphyxiation; unfortunately, a person needs to be “a somebody” to access this paper and I am currently below such status.

Still, if we have an asphyxiated Elizabeth Stride’s body lying on a sloped pavement, by all accounts it would be the natural force of gravity that was causing this stream of blood which is flowing from her neck [since it is not the act of a contracting heart that is pushing the blood out of her body].

According to the Morning Advertiser 2 Oct 1888, Mrs. Deimshitz[sic] made the following statement:

"Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct..."

{Hopefully, you can remind me of the distance from gate to the club’s side door. I am uncertainly thinking that it was 18 feet.}

From a forensic standpoint, would there have been sufficient time for enough quantity of blood to (a) have drained out of the partially-cut carotid of a lifeless body being acted on by the force of gravity as it lay on an incline, (b) streamed the X feet within the rut|gutter to the doorway and (c) pooled up outside of the club-door - within the timeframe of Louis Diemschutz turning his barrow into Dutfield Yard until Mrs. Diemschutz steps into the doorway and notices the pool of blood? [In this case, X represents the remaining distance in feet from her neck to the doorway]

This, after all, would have to be possible if The Interruption theory is to have any merit. For now, it would seem as though 2-quarts of blood would be a lot to move that distance & within that timeframe (to me, at least)

All emphasis my own,

Section of the post-mortem report:

[DJA]

Wore is past tense of wear.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hello N.B.F.N.,

Do you think it is possible that Jack could have been scared off before he had a chance to mutilate Stride? If so, how would you go about proving that?

c.d.

That is not the right way to go about it.
Firstly, we need a thorough and robust model of how the murder was executed.
I think speculating on the cause of the murderer fleeing the scene, is starting midstream, so to speak.
Consider this little anomaly:

Diemschutz: It seemed to me that her clothes were in perfect order. I could see that her throat was fearfully cut. She had dark clothes on, and wore a black crape bonnet.

Where is the bonnet?

Johnston: The bonnet of the deceased was lying three or four inches beyond the head on the ground.

Now where is the bonnet?

One could argue that Diemschutz really meant 'and had worn a black crape bonnet', but that wouldn't make much sense given the context of the sentence.
Why would he change from making specific references to what he had observed of the victim, and then say something that ambiguous?

Apparently the bonnet was removed, after the murder!

There are several other anomalies, that can't be easily explained away.
If people start by wondering why the murderer took off, these little issues are going to be missed.

[DJA]

I hate the act of quoting myself but I felt the question being begged after I posted. Would it have been possible for enough blood to have traveled the distance from her body to the door and pooled up-there if, in fact, Louis Diemschutz had just interrupted the murderer during the act? Keeping in mind that by the time he parks his barrow, lights a match and returns with the candle (a minute or two), there is already a pool of blood by the door which Mrs Diemschutz attests to in the Morning Advertiser October 2nd 1888. And, considering that Elizabeth Stride's carotid wasn't entirely cut through. Determining that possibility could be an indication if she had been murdered prior to the 1am theory.

If Stride had lost 2 quarts of blood ,including any clot,she would have still been alive and her heart pumping > 140 bpm with BP < 70.

Irrelevant as she had been asphyxiated.Phillips' autopsy proved that.

Strongly suspect Jack had been waiting for BS Man to vacate the scene.Even if the baker's clock was 5 minutes fast ,Jack had enough time to do his work and depart.

[Robert St Devil]

...What Dr Phillips does not consider regarding the unusual flow of blood is the crime scene itself. From stated reports, we know that the blood moved from her body towards the club’s side-door further up the yard. We also know that the blood pooled near the door. What these observations indicate is that the passageway was sloped downwards from the gate towards the club’s side-door {maybe this was a reason a drain was needed }. How much was it sloped? Well, first let’s consider the positioning of Elizabeth Stride. We know that her feet were towards the gate and her head was towards the side-door. This means, with her dead body lying|laying* on a slope, her feet are effectively above her head. So, based on the properties of gravity, blood is moving in the direction from her feet towards [and out of] the cut in her neck. {I feel that it’s safe to say that: if the ground wasn’t sloped and had been completely flat, then the blood would have 1) ran in both directions along the rut, 2) pooled up nearer to her neck, 3) been less of an outflow since gravity would be pulling equilaterally}. So, how sloped was the ground? I can’t accurately calculate that factor but I know that it was enough that the stream of blood traveled the remaining distance from her body to the door and that it pooled up there. {Trying to remember if the side-door was 18 feet or yards from the gate as well as how much blood was observed} Either way, to me, it suggests more than just a mild grade slope. So when the Doctor says there was an unusual flow of blood, I believe that he is saying that she has bled out “quite a bit” of blood (or that she has bled out more than he would have estimated considering that her carotid was not entirely severed) without taking into account the manner in which her body is “resting” on the downward slope [feet &amp; body above her neck] and the effect of gravity pulling blood towards &amp; out of the cut in her neck.

I hate the act of quoting myself but I felt the question being begged after I posted. Would it have been possible for enough blood to have traveled the distance from her body to the door and pooled up-there if, in fact, Louis Diemschutz had just interrupted the murderer during the act? Keeping in mind that by the time he parks his barrow, lights a match and returns with the candle (a minute or two), there is already a pool of blood by the door which Mrs Diemschutz attests to in the Morning Advertiser October 2nd 1888. And, considering that Elizabeth Stride's carotid wasn't entirely cut through. Determining that possibility could be an indication if she had been murdered prior to the 1am theory.

[Robert St Devil]

It’s Saturday, dealing with a bout of vertigo & boredom, nothing more to do than stay home and “casebook”

Morning Advertiser (London)
Thurdsdy, October 4^th 1888
Coroner: Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
Dr. Phillips: I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted, if I may use the term, from the original flow of the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

I wanted to add this bit about NB4N’s interest surrounding the Doctor’s response since it may add a dimensional aspect to the crime scene.

My take is, that Coroner Baxter is asking the Doctor if there were marks of blood to be found at places around the crime scene other than in the aforementioned rut. Coming off the Chapman crime scene where a spray of blood was found on the adjacent fence, the Coroner wants to know if there were similar marks at the Stride crime scene (or, in general, if there were marks about the scene that may indicate a struggle, whether she was standing when she was cut, prints that may have been caused by her murderer, &c.) When the Doctor uses the term “transplanted”, it’s an unnecessary & obtuse way of merely stating: I only observed the blood which had flown|leaked|dripped|poured|transplanted from the cut in her neck down into the rut and did not see marks of blood anywhere-else along the crime scene. From direct observation, he knows that the original flow of [blood from] the neck is into the rut. In other words, he could have easily have responded with: Nope! What Dr Phillips does not consider regarding the unusual flow of blood is the crime scene itself. From stated reports, we know that the blood moved from her body towards the club’s side-door further up the yard. We also know that the blood pooled near the door. What these observations indicate is that the passageway was sloped downwards from the gate towards the club’s side-door {maybe this was a reason a drain was needed }. How much was it sloped? Well, first let’s consider the positioning of Elizabeth Stride. We know that her feet were towards the gate and her head was towards the side-door. This means, with her dead body lying|laying* on a slope, her feet are effectively above her head. So, based on the properties of gravity, blood is moving in the direction from her feet towards [and out of] the cut in her neck. {I feel that it’s safe to say that: if the ground wasn’t sloped and had been completely flat, then the blood would have 1) ran in both directions along the rut, 2) pooled up nearer to her neck, 3) been less of an outflow since gravity would be pulling equilaterally}. So, how sloped was the ground? I can’t accurately calculate that factor but I know that it was enough that the stream of blood traveled the remaining distance from her body to the door and that it pooled up there. {Trying to remember if the side-door was 18 feet or yards from the gate as well as how much blood was observed} Either way, to me, it suggests more than just a mild grade slope. So when the Doctor says there was an unusual flow of blood, I believe that he is saying that she has bled out “quite a bit” of blood (or that she has bled out more than he would have estimated considering that her carotid was not entirely severed) without taking into account the manner in which her body is “resting” on the downward slope [feet & body above her neck] and the effect of gravity pulling blood towards & out of the cut in her neck.

[Robert St Devil]

Re the blood, I think we are talking past each other.
Consider this, which might be a case of seeing a face in a cloud...
PC Lamb finds her legs, very close to the gate:
Eagle, not so much:
That either means, 6 or 7ft from the gate, or 1 or 2 ft from the gate (6 or 7 minus 5ft).
That's not the same thing as having her boot ends, tucking in behind the open gate.
Was she moved a few feet closer to the gate, for some reason?
If we suppose yes, the blood flow would have been unequal along the gutter.
Now consider:
A bit of water from a bucket, would have quickly evened things up.
Now, with water added to the gutter, what area of blood would have congealed first?
What Phillips is getting at, may have nothing to do with spots or treads.

I set this portion of your response aside from my previous comment so that I may have a separate venue to say:

What on God’s green earth are you even talking about, man ?!

I was talking about the trodden marks of blood found around her body and how they related to the soles of Elizabeth Stride’s boots. I need a better connection of how that observation led into -> 1) contrasting observations about her distance from the gate and 2) unsubstantiated aspects of the crime scene [a bucket of water]. Regarding the 2^nd point, you are walking a zig-zag line between speculation and cheating. You don’t believe Louis Diemschutz had a whip, barrow or pony; however, now we are supposed to accept that there is an unmentioned bucket of water somewhere in the yard.
As far as the trodden marks of blood and the Coroner’s curiosity about the soles of her boots, I would speculate that he was trying to determine if she had been the one to step in her own blood. Why? Because if there had been blood on the soles of her boots, then that would mean that she had been standing when her throat was cut. And, obviously that was a point of concern considering the opinion of the doctors was asked during the course of the inquest.
As far as the body being moved, it would more than likely had to have happened before her throat had been cut since the doctors did not observe any blood on her clothes.
{* That is not say that I am opposed to the idea that her body was positioned during the course of the murder. Why I say that comes back to a question that you might be willing to participate on: was it happenstance or occurrence that her neck was directly over that rut|gutter? Now, maybe I’m not using that terms correctly in this context but what I’m getting at is, did the murderer purposely place her neck over that rut around the time that he cut it, or did Elizabeth Stride just happen to die near enough to that position & the rut inadvertently added an aspect to the crime scene? The petty reason why this interests me (and my memory may be entirely dim on this matter) is I think a similar aspect was evident at the scene of Polly Nicholls’ murder (could be wrong tho!) with her blood trailing off into a gutter.}