A Whip and a Prod

[Robert St Devil]

Not my official answer as of yet but the best one going...

Her murderer, be it the Ripper or not, cut her throat while she was laying on her back and rolled her over on to her left side. Could be why the upper part of her left arm was underneath her. Could be why some of her hair is matted with blood as well as the left side of her head being muddied. Could be why her bonnet was near her head, coming off as he rolled her over. Bonnet was described as round and with no strings.

Of course this isn't my cemented answer. After all, this cut was nothing like a Ripper neck- slice. It did deviate down a bit (you can see it in her morgue photo) and it did not attempt to extend as far back as her spinal column. In fact, it didn't even cut her carotid all the way through. So maybe these are indications that there were difficulties cutting her throat. Remember, there's a good chance that he's doing all of this in pitch black.

* my preoccupation with the placement of the bonnet is that there was a similar finding at the Nicholls' crime scene but strangely not at Eddowes or Chapman's crime scene

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Dave and thanks.

Right now I am stuck in contemplations on the cachous being an aspect of her romantic kissings as claimed to have been seen by William Marshall opposite of 58 Berners Street. On the upside, I just found an article stating that there was a Kindergarten Emporium at 57 Berners Street where toys were sold (fingers crossed it's the same Berners Street), unsure if there would have been window displays that they may have stopped to look at during their stroll and public displays of affection.

[DJA]

That's Frost's over in Fitzrovia. London,WC1.

Look what I found

Joe Ely Band 4/16/2010 Full Concert - YouTube

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You are understanding that it wasn't pitch black throughout the entirety of the yard, yes, NB4N?

Yes, it was lighter where Jack had hidden, in contrast to the area in which the cart was plainly visible to everyone.

[Robert St Devil]

That's Frost's over in Fitzrovia. London,WC1.

Look what I found

Joe Ely Band 4/16/2010 Full Concert - YouTube

holy hell Dave... listening now and reading the YT comments... crikey! I completely forgot about Liberty Lunch and the bands that I saw there in the 90s, which is just further proof that I was actually there

[Robert St Devil]

Yes, it was lighter where Jack had hidden, in contrast to the area in which the cart was plainly visible to everyone.

Sheffield Weekly Telegraph
Saturday 3 November 1888
Slumming in Whitechapel | By a Protected Female | II
By this time we have got to a building which Mr. B_____ [the officer assigned to protect the female reporter as she “slums” the Whitechapel murder sites prior to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly] informs me is the club rendered notorious by being so near the scene of the Berners street tragedy,… Next to the club is a pair of high wooden gates which open inwards into the stable yard. We go inside, first taking a hasty glance behind the gates to see if anyone is lurking there, for there is plenty of room for a hiding place.

** This article only offers a possibility for where her murderer may have hidden if we are working within the bounds of The Interruption theory. As is generally stated, her body wasn’t far off from the gate, and there could have been an opportune chance for the murderer to hide behind the gate before Louis Diemschutz, pony & barrow passed by him. I wouldn’t believe that he exited the passageway [stepping out of the gloom, so to speak] into the yard as it seems, by accounts given, that there was more light in that area [from the windows of the club, the side-door, the cottages] and there exists the possibility that Diemschutz may have noticed him. Again, that’s just speculation based on The Interruption theory and the described scene of Dutfield Yard.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I’m failing to understand why you don’t believe that there was sufficient room in the yard to accommodate this mass of people with pony & barrow. Based on the diagram, it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As is generally stated, her body wasn’t far off from the gate, and there could have been an opportune chance for the murderer to hide behind the gate before Louis Diemschutz, pony & barrow passed by him.

As far as I know, the gates as a pair were 9'2" wide, and the wall to wall distance was 10'.
The 10" difference is due to the gate frame on each side.
That means there would be a gap of less than 5" behind each open gate and the corresponding wall.

I’m failing to understand why you don’t believe that there was sufficient room in the yard to accommodate this mass of people with pony & barrow. Based on the diagram, it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

People weren't allowed to stand in any nook or cranny of the yard, they felt like standing in.
It's not a question of the total yard area being large enough, it's a question of how deep people were allowed to retreat into the yard.
How far that was, however, is difficult to determine (someone else may know, though).

Here are some relevant quotes from PC Lamb & PC Smith.

Lamb is not totally sure about the time he is first alerted to the situation...

[Daily Telegraph] Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting.
[The Times] About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.

PC Smith helps to clear things up, to some extent...

[I] was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock. I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police." When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived.

If Smith is correct about seeing the crowd outside #40 at 1:00, Diemschutz story is already looking shaky.
The usual way around this is to argue that Smith got the time wrong by several minutes.
I have read estimates of up to 11 minutes, which seems incredible to me.
Smith's beat had a mean time-span of 27½ minutes, with a 'margin of error' of 2½ minutes (25-30 mins total).
To be out by 10 minutes or more, on a beat within visual range of more than one clock, would seem to be highly improbable.
Therefore we can suppose that Lamb's guess of shortly before 1 am, was correct, and if anything, was wrong in the opposite direction to that usually supposed.

More from Lamb:

[Coroner] Was any one touching the body when you arrived?
[Lamb] No. There was no one within a yard of it. As I was examining the body some crowded round. I begged them to keep back, and told them they might get some of the blood on their clothing, and by that means get themselves into trouble. I then blew my whistle. I put my hand on the face and found it slightly warm.

So no one near the body on Lamb's arrival, adding to the mystery of the trodden in blood marks.
The body already seems to be cooling.

[Coroner] Were her clothes disturbed?
[Lamb] No. I scarcely could see her boots. She looked as if she had been laid quietly down. Her clothes were not in the least rumpled.
[Coroner] Was the blood in a liquid state?
[Lamb] Some was, and some was congealed. It extended close to the door. The part nearest to her throat was congealed.
[Coroner] Was any blood coming from the throat at that time?
[Lamb] I hardly like to say that, Sir. If there was it must have been a very small quantity.
...
[Lamb] When I got there I had the gates shut.
[Coroner] But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
[Lamb] No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

So she looks like she has lain down to have a sleep.
Clothes are in perfect order, and amazingly, the feet tuck into the gap between gate and wall.
We also know that the bonnet was just a few inches from the head, and face was no more than 6" from the wall.
She must have been incapacitated, before being lowered to the ground.
She must also have been lowered carefully, because she had no injuries attributable to falling, the bonnet is right next to her head, and (somehow), the feet end up in the sub 5" gap between gate and wall.

We also learn from Lamb that (not long after 1 am), blood flow has reduced to a trickle, the stream has almost reached the door, and the blood nearest the throat has congealed.
Liz Stride was 5'5" tall. In the position she was found, she would only be about 4' from head to toe, and definitely no more than 4½'.
As each gate was 4½ wide, we can determine that her head was no more than 9' from the gateway (threshold of footpath to yard).
The door was 18' from the gateway, meaning that the bloodstream is approaching 9', just after 1 am.

So what about evidence of the pony and cart?
Lamb went into the club and found 15-20 people there. He continues...

[Lamb] After I examined the club, I went into the yard and examined the cottages. I also went into the water-closets. The occupiers of the cottages were all in bed when I knocked.
[Coroner] There is a recess in the yard, is there not? Did you go there?
[Lamb] Yes; and I afterwards went there with Dr. Phillips. I examined the dust-bin and dung-heap. I noticed there was a hoarding, but I do not recollect looking over it. After that I went and examined the steps and outside of Messrs. Hindley's premises. I also looked through the windows, as the doors were fastened.

So clearly he is looking everywhere in the yard, and the nearby premises, yet the closest sign we get to a pony and cart, is the dung heap.
The existence of the dung heap needs explaining.
Diemschutz only ever had the pony in the yard to pick up and drop off his wares.
Why is there an entire heap of dung?
Also, what is the hoarding that Lamb refers to?

The pony and cart appear not to be in the yard proper, so where are they?

Here are the the critical dimensions:

Each gate width: 4½'
Body length from gate edge: 4'
Length of cart: 7'
Length of pony plus cart clearance: 7' (6 + 1)
Distance from gateway to door: 18'

So the critical questions are, where was the body in relation to the cart when Diemschutz first stops, and does he subsequently move the further down the yard?

[The Foreman] Was there sufficient room for you to pass the body when you went into the yard?
[Diemschutz] Yes; and I did so. When my pony shied I was passing the body, and was right by when I got down.

[Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it?
[Diemschutz] I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.

So Diemschutz himself travels past the body, but it cannot be far past, because when he jumps down, the body is right by.
In the front of cart seating position, Diemschutz is about 1½' from the front of the cart.
Let's have Liz's head midway along the cart - 3½' from each end.
Now Diemschutz is both past the body when he stops, but when he jumps down, the body is right by him - so both 'criteria' are met.

So where is the pony?

Liz's head is a good 8½' from the gateway.
Adding 3½' of cart bring us to 12'.
Another 7' of pony and clearance (which assumes just 1' from pony to cart), bring us to 19'.
So the pony's nose is right outside the door, if not further along.

[Coroner] What did you do with the pony?
[Diemschutz] I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.

Diemschutz never moved the cart, after he initially stops.
Around 3½' of cart overlap the body, and the edge of the cart is only 1 to 2' from the body.
It is therefore, an obstruction to proceedings.

[DJA]

Brachial artery - Wikipedia


Hopefully this will show how Jack controlled Stride and explain the pressure marks under the collar bones.

[Michael W Richards]

If I had to guess (and that is all it is) I think that Jack's desire to kill overcame his good judgment and at some point (maybe even before he killed Stride) he realized that this was not a safe place and chose to get out of there as quickly as possible after killing her. Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel and I think he was mentally competent enough to realize that if he were to be caught he would be hanged. That would certainly make me a bit jumpy.

Can the interruption theory be proved? No. But it is certainly plausible and again it could have taken place without hard evidence of it.

c.d.

What would be needed c.d. is some indication, any indication, that further intent was present. If this was Jack and he learned to hold back his impulses after Pollys murder in order to get into a more favourable position to accomplish his ultimate goals, he doesn't then revert to his old ways on what would be his next kill. Pollys venue was bad for mutilating, so is just inside the passageway. But a 2 second kill, one sweep of a knife across the throat...well, you could almost get away with that anywhere. And someone did.

[Michael W Richards]

Checking on the wife and securing lighting makes sense to me.
Getting help also makes sense,as she had lost a lot of blood.
The killer might still be nearby.
We don't know if anyone checked her pulse at that time. Wouldn't matter as she was dead.

The throat cut was like a second bullet,just making sure.

Nope.

Not really.

Since there is no evidence she dies by asphyxiation, choking, strangulation et al, the cause of death will remain that she bled out from her wounds. Which may have been while Louis was checking his wife, making some decisions, calling inside for help....

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hopefully this will show how Jack controlled Stride and explain the pressure marks under the collar bones.

Depends what you mean by 'controlled'.
Does it mean pushed up against a wall?
It certainly wouldn't be a good way of keeping her quiet - on the contrary, she would be in a lot of pain and be making plenty of noise.
What about the marks over the shoulders?
What about this:

Phillips: ... there was an abrasion of the skin, about an inch and a quarter in diameter, under the right clavicle.

A 1¼" abrasion under the right clavicle? How did that get there?

Phillips: Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

This sentence is a bit odd. I don't think it was quite what he said. This is my 'edit':

Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect, and under the colar bones, from in front of chest, there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

The 'front aspect' refers to the shoulder marks, so her left shoulder has the stronger marking.
The 'from in front of chest' refers to the same frontal aspect, but with the respect to the colar bones.
It should really be two sentences.

Anyway, we have a total of 5 marks to account for. How did they all get there?

Then we move onto your theory of strangulation, which has to compete with this:

[Coroner] What was the cause of death? -
[Phillips] Undoubtedly the loss of blood from the left carotid artery and the division of the windpipe.

Also this:

[Coroner] There were no marks of gagging, no bruises on the face, and no trace of any anaesthetic or narcotic in the stomach; while the presence of the cachous in her hand showed that she did not make use of it in self-defence.

Then there is this little annoyance:

Phillips: Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side.

Was the mud on the left side of face, or on the face, in general?
How did it get there?

[Michael W Richards]

Sheffield Weekly Telegraph
Saturday 3 November 1888
Slumming in Whitechapel | By a Protected Female | II
By this time we have got to a building which Mr. B_____ [the officer assigned to protect the female reporter as she “slums” the Whitechapel murder sites prior to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly] informs me is the club rendered notorious by being so near the scene of the Berners street tragedy,… Next to the club is a pair of high wooden gates which open inwards into the stable yard. We go inside, first taking a hasty glance behind the gates to see if anyone is lurking there, for there is plenty of room for a hiding place.

** This article only offers a possibility for where her murderer may have hidden if we are working within the bounds of The Interruption theory. As is generally stated, her body wasn’t far off from the gate, and there could have been an opportune chance for the murderer to hide behind the gate before Louis Diemschutz, pony & barrow passed by him. I wouldn’t believe that he exited the passageway [stepping out of the gloom, so to speak] into the yard as it seems, by accounts given, that there was more light in that area [from the windows of the club, the side-door, the cottages] and there exists the possibility that Diemschutz may have noticed him. Again, that’s just speculation based on The Interruption theory and the described scene of Dutfield Yard.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I’m failing to understand why you don’t believe that there was sufficient room in the yard to accommodate this mass of people with pony & barrow. Based on the diagram, it doesn’t seem unreasonable.

The Interruption Theory is just for the jolly Robert, there is nothing in any physical evidence that any action was not complete unto itself, but I wanted to mention that a killer could have either remained onsite and blended in, dumping a knife in the soapy dishwater in the kitchen, or he could have left the scene...but he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1am. Fanny is at her door continuously during that 10 minute span. She sees only Goldstein at around 12:55. So the killer left when she went in, or before she stood there during her "vigil". If after she goes in, then the killer is there when Eagle arrives and Lave is still standing there, and when Louis says he arrived. Problem is that Louis's account is in the minority when stories of his arrival time are counted, actually his is a singular account, 4 people say he was there at 12:45 and Fanny didn't see anyone arrive at or before 1.....from 12:50 until 1.

If he leaves before Fannys vigil, its entirely possible he cuts her and just walks away. Louis is just arriving. And Eagle and Lave would have moved on from that location. Around 12:40-12:42. Only the young couple would have seen him. Louis pulls in, 12:42-12:45 ish, the guy walks past the pony as it pulls in, it shies, and he heads out in the opposite direction. Towards Commercial. Louis finds the woman, calls for help, they gather by the body, some men go out for help, Spooner sees them. What 12:45-46?

Four witnesses add credence to that scenario.

[Michael W Richards]

Liz is not seen on the street after 12:35, she is almost certainly in the passageway, so how come Eagle and Lave seen no-one?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

...but he didn't leave between 12:50 and 1am. Fanny is at her door continuously during that 10 minute span.

Actually, Fanny was at her door almost the whole time, from 12:30 to 1:00, just like she said she was.
Prove me wrong ...

Problem is that Louis's account is in the minority when stories of his arrival time are counted, actually his is a singular account, 4 people say he was there at 12:45 and Fanny didn't see anyone arrive at or before 1.....from 12:50 until 1.

Could you provide an actual list of names and times?
Then anyone could challenge any specific time, if they wanted to.

Louis pulls in, 12:42-12:45 ish, the guy walks past the pony as it pulls in, it shies, and he heads out in the opposite direction.

What about that guy who ran helter-skelter from the vicinity of the gates at 12:45-ish - maybe he had something to do with it? No?

[Joshua Rogan]

Hopefully this will show how Jack controlled Stride and explain the pressure marks under the collar bones.

Spock the Ripper?