Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A couple of questions regarding Louis Diemschutz...

I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods.

Why is it that a man who is steward of the club, and lives at the club with his wife, on a property that has a stabling yard, is not able to stable his own pony there?
Seems odd to bizarre that he has to drop off his goods there, then head off to Cable St to leave behind pony and cart, and then walk home to finally greet his missus.
Must have been so demoralising at the end of a 13½ hour workday!

Also, why must he drive down the lane, take his goods in the side door, then do a u-turn in the yard before heading off again?
Why not just park on Berner St and duck in the front door? That would be much more efficient.
After all, his jewellery is probably held in small leather bags or old boxes. Or is there so much weight that he needs to get closer to a door?

[DJA]

The Club owns two buildings.
There are dwellings on the other side and Hindley and Co's premises at the end.
There is nowhere for the pony.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Club owns two buildings.
There are dwellings on the other side and Hindley and Co's premises at the end.
There is nowhere for the pony.

Thanks Dave.

What do you make of this:

Dr Blackwell: The appearance of the face was quite placid. The mouth was slightly open. The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight. In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The border was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife.

She should have been grimacing with a very tight scarf around her neck.
I don't mean that totally seriously, but it does seem like an odd way to wear what for her, must have been a luxury item.
It does not make sense for JtR to tighten the scarf so has he has something to pull on.
On the other hand, why bother tightening it after her throat has been cut?

A Juror: Can you say whether the throat was cut before or after the deceased fell to the ground? - I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up.
The Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out? - I could not say that.

This only tells us that the tight scarf provided some sort of convenience in pulling her back, but does not explain why the very tight fit came to be (not the Dr's job).

Could the scarf have been tightened just before the throat was cut, to control the initial bleeding?

[Joshua Rogan]

Could the scarf have been tightened just before the throat was cut, to control the initial bleeding?

Not really. It's posible this might have been the intention, but as the throat was cut below the scarf it would - even if tight enough - only stop the flow of blood leaving the head.

[drstrange169]

>>Could the scarf have been tightened just before the throat was cut, to control the initial bleeding <<

Your post already contained the answer

"In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not really. It's posible this might have been the intention, but as the throat was cut below the scarf it would - even if tight enough - only stop the flow of blood leaving the head.

Fine, but what to make of the very tight fit?
I take that to mean almost choking tight.
Why would Liz wear a silk scarf in that manner?

Then there is the "long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf."
Tracing the line of the scarf would require careful hand-eye coordination.
That in turn would require the victim to be quite still.
How would this be achieved if Liz were fighting to save her life?
Either she had been subdued (no evidence for), or someone(s) else was holding her down when the throat is cut.

If the later, were was this person/these persons when Diemschutz entered the lane?
Presumably they all tip-toed up to the windowed area of the club building, or into the yard, and then dashed out together when Louis went inside for assistance.
Otherwise, we are left to explain how the killer manages to precisely trace the line of an usually tight scarf, and a victim who dies with a placid face.

[DJA]

This thread is repetitive and too often fixated on the bleedin' obvious.

Most,if not all C5 were strangled before their throats were cut.

Silence and lack of signs of struggle were also part of his signature.

Given Jack's pathological expertise,no doubt he knew exactly what he was doing.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

"Most,if not all C5 were strangled before their throats were cut."

In Stride's case, the evidence for this looks weak.
Consider this...

Dr Blackwell: The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 inches below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 inch below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side.

Where was the scarf in relation to the incision?..

In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf.

So the scarf was bunched up in the upper area of her neck, making strangulation even more difficult than usual.

And yet you think it is bleedin' obvious she was strangled.
Sorry Dave, she wasn't strangled.
There was no arterial spray around were the body lay.
Therefore, her throat was cut at some distance from were she ended up, because she was moved there.
Did JtR move any of the other C5? No.
She was moved there by members of the club, including Louis Diemschutz.

[DJA]

Riding The Victorian Merry Go Round Carousel - YouTube

[drstrange169]

>> Then there is the "long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf."
Tracing the line of the scarf would require careful hand-eye coordination.
That in turn would require the victim to be quite still. How would this be achieved ...<<

It's becoming clear you need to do a lot more reading and digesting information. If you look hard at the available information it gives strong clues as to how it could be achieved.

>> ... if Liz were fighting to save her life?
Either she had been subdued (no evidence for), or someone(s) else was holding her down when the throat is cut.<<

Could you explain the mechanics of this?

How was she held? What position was the knife wielder in when they inflicted the cut? How was she moved?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So there were some signs consistent with strangulation...

Dr Phillips: Both lungs were unusually pale. The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

On the other hand, the tongue was not swollen, nor was there any bruising to the neck.
So all the signature signs of strangulation were internal, and none were external (if we include the tongue).
What could explain this? I thought about it for a while, and then the penny dropped...

She was not strangled through the extremely tight scarf, but she was partially asphyxiated by it.

The heart is being made to work much harder than normal, but there are no hands on throat.
Can you think of a better explanation for the ambiguous signs of strangulation?

Scarfs are normally worn quite loosely wrapped around the neck, resting on shoulders and upper chest, with bow at the front.
For Stride to be wearing a scarf pulled very tight, around the mid to top of her neck and with bow at one side, is very unusual.
The Sherlock Holmes in me says this is a vital clue.
He then tells me that the side the bow was tied on - the left - gives us the relative location of the tyer.
Thirdly, he asks me to consider what this suggests, given that Stride's left side was up against the wall.

[DJA]

Must have been a whole bunch of them.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> ... if Liz were fighting to save her life?
Either she had been subdued (no evidence for), or someone(s) else was holding her down when the throat is cut.<<

Could you explain the mechanics of this?

How was she held? What position was the knife wielder in when they inflicted the cut? How was she moved?

1. She is grabbed by the shoulders from behind, and under the colar bones from in front (so two men)...

Dr Phillips: Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

2. Scarf is pulled and tied extremely tightly around the mid-to-upper regions of her neck, eventually causing partial asphyxiation (see my last post).

3. The subdued victim then has her throat cut along the line of the scarf, with medical precision.

4. Some blood falls to the ground as she is moved, and trodden in by those doing the moving.

[Coroner] Were there no spots of blood about? - No; only some marks of blood which had been trodden in.

All the other blood drains into the gutter.
How could blood have been trodden in if she were not moved after the throat was cut?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Must have been a whole bunch of them.

Well maybe a few, and they were as thick as thieves

[DJA]

When 5 psi compression of the carotid arteries for as little as 10 seconds is sufficient to render someone unconscious and close to death,why would Jack use a scarf!

Stage hypnotists have used the technique for many decades.