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Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

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  • Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

    What happened to Louis Diemschutz' pony and cart, after he returned to Dutfield's Yard?

    After discovering the body and going inside the club to find his wife and alert other members, Diemschutz claims to have gone off searching for a policeman, over a distance of a few blocks, fails to find one, and then returns to the scene of the crime. By that stage other men, and shortly after, Constables, are with the body, followed several minutes later by doctors.

    Okay, so what is done with the pony and cart, which must surely be making clear access to the body much more difficult than necessary? Reversing out of the yard would have been almost impossible, as this video indicates.


    The slightly annoying dog points to the difficulty of coordinating the backward movement of the horse. This is far from being a straightforward exercise! Consequently, it must be supposed that the pony and cart stayed right along side Elizabeth Stride's body during her examination by police and doctors, or were moved to the back of the yard, at least until the body had been removed.

    Diemschutz claims to have left the yard once doctors had arrived, and gone back into the club to continue with his duties. However, between the period of constables and then doctors arriving, Diemschutz manages to get a good enough look at Stride to later describe her dress standard, in comparison to Annie Chapman, the position of her hands, and what her hands were holding. He sees both a doctor and constable place a hand on Stride's chest, and estimates the amount of blood on the ground. This suggests Diemschutz was not asked to move the pony and cart, giving him plenty of time to make these observations. Furthermore, this period supposedly also includes being searched by police.

    How does Diemschutz make all these very specific observations, with his own cart right in front of the body, in an area dark enough to require a candle to even make out that what he had discovered on the ground was a human body?

    Another query I have about Diemschutz' account, is the prodding of the body with the handle of his whip. He claims to attempt to lift the body (not knowing it was one, of course) with the handle, while still seated in his cart. Has anyone tried to recreate this scene? On doing so, it might be discovered that a handle of several feet in length would be necessary to attempt to do what Diemschutz claims to have attempted.
    Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 01-02-2020, 01:32 PM.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

  • #2
    What ho.
    Louis didn't leave the cart right beside the body, but further down the yard;

    "What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door."

    The door was six or seven yards from the body, so the pony and cart wouldn't have been too much in the way. If they were, it's possible he moved it further down the yard before the police arrived, it wouldn't have taken long. Or it may have wandered that way on it's own?

    The yard did have a stable at the end, so presumably Louis would normally have led the pony furher down after unloading and turned around where it widened out.

    Comment


    • #3
      Welcome to the boards, by the way.

      On the subject of the whip, Louis describes his cart as;

      "I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow."

      So he was probably sat a lot lower than the chap in your video. And hence it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to reach something on the ground with his whip.

      Comment


      • #4
        What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.
        What an odd way of putting it.
        If I (or anyone) were asked; "What did you do with your car", and the reply was; "I left it on the street" - that would make sense.
        By comparison; "My car was blocking the driveway, so I left it on the street" - does not make a lot of grammatical sense. It mixes tenses in a confusing manner.

        Louis Diemschutz arrived at Dutfield's Yard to deliver goods. If he goes into the club shortly after doctors begin examining Stride, what occurs to the goods in the cart, whose delivery is Diemschutz' sole reason for visiting the yard in the first place? Do the goods just sit outside, unattended, for the remainder of the night or longer?

        Does Diemschutz detach the pony from the cart, and tie it up? This would take significant time, especially in the near darkness of the stable area. Furthermore, this is not the pony's normal tie-up location. Alternatively, Diemschutz leaves pony and cart connected, in the same casual manner as he answers the question.

        The pony, cart, and goods in the cart are, or at least should be, Diemschutz' primary concern. However, he seems much more interested in Elizabeth Stride, than his does his own stuff. That is, at least until doctors begin their examination, at which point he seems to lose interest in the murder and related activity, and goes inside. Subsequently, he ends up talking to the press, and compares Stride's standard of dress, to another JtR victim. Why does he make that comparison, given that Stride was not ripped? At that stage, it's just another murder, as far as he knows - or is it?
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • #5
          Welcome to the boards, by the way.
          Thank you.

          So he was probably sat a lot lower than the chap in your video. And hence it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to reach something on the ground with his whip.
          Is "probably" good enough? What about the angle involved? The lower he sits, the more awkward the angle becomes. Someone should try to replicate, with the exact seating arrangement, whip dimensions, and proximity to the "body".

          Whatever the case, pulling up right along Stride, who conveniently lays up against and along a wall, just in time to scare off Jack, but just too late to save Elizabeth, seems all too convenient to me. It reads like a novel, not a real event. By contrast, Diemschutz, Kozebrodski and Co.'s involvement in both radical politics and politically inspired violence, juxtaposed with their "discovery" of Elizabeth Stride, just oozes suggestibility.
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • #6
            He was driving a barrow and could reach the body with his whip handle.
            The barrow handles would have been waist height.

            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

            Comment


            • #7
              Victorian Costermonger's barrow in fully restored condition - LASSCO - England's Prime Resource for Architectural Antiques, Salvage and Curiosities

              1871 Large Photogravure - London Costermonger Family- Cart Ride to Epping Forest | eBay
              Last edited by DJA; 01-03-2020, 06:14 AM.
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • #8
                The barrow handles would have been waist height.
                If he were 3ft above, and 3ft across from Stride, he was 4.24ft away from her, or about 1.3m.
                That is the best case scenario. This might seem an acceptable distance, especially if the whip were of the long handle variety (as in the video above).
                A short handle with a long strap, and an offset greater the minimum of 3ft, makes Diemschutz' job increasingly difficult as the offset increases, to the point that his story becomes unbelievable. Fortunately for Diemschutz, Ripperologists seem to believe that the pony was quite considerate of these facts when deciding when to stop walking.
                Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 01-03-2020, 06:42 AM.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lewis Dienishitz [Diemschutz], having affirmed, deposed: I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. I had been to the market near the Crystal Palace, and had a barrow like a costermonger's, drawn by a pony, which I keep in George-yard Cable-street. I drove home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object. I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If we assume that everything Dienishitz/Diemschitz/Diemschutz says is true, then obviously we will reach the conclusion that he is innocent.
                    But why do that?

                    On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning.
                    Great timing sir! It's as if you were working to some precisely laid out plan!

                    I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open.
                    Diemschutz seems surprised that both yard gates are wide open. Why?

                    All at once my pony shied at some object on the right.
                    Why? Why not just walk around it? Once again, has this story been replicated?
                    Do pony's generally shy at bleeding humans lying up against walls, or do they casually walk on by?

                    I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match.
                    Presumably the man with many names jumped down between his barrow and Stride, making the offset from the body and his seated position, more like 5ft.
                    That gives a seated to body distance of 5.83ft, or almost 1.8m. My, what a long handle you have, Mr Diemschutz!
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm not entirely sure what the point being made here is? Initially it was "where was Louis pony while the body was being examined?", reasonably in the yard/stable. Now the issue is that his whips too long or he was too far away or something?
                      There's been plenty of speculation about the members of the club that night, and if this is a thread along those lines then can someone clear it up a bit please?
                      Are you implying that Diemschutz killed Liz, a la Charles Lechmere, and made a poor cover story about finding the body?
                      I'm not going to link to it, or such....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ‘“I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open.”

                        Diemschutz seems surprised that both gates are wide open. Why?
                        Hi NBFN, welcome to Casebook.

                        Diemschutz is simply stating a fact to explain why he didn’t have to open the gates himself. I can’t see why you think that he implied surprise?

                        Also:

                        ”On Saturday I left home about half past eleven in the morning, and returned at exactly on o’clock on Sunday morning.”

                        Great timing sir! It's as if you were working to some precisely laid out plan!
                        I can’t see this as any better ‘timing’ than Lechmere finding Nichols or Davis finding Chapman? He’d told the police where he’d been so they could have checked this.

                        Also:

                        Presumably the man with many names jumped down between his barrow and Stride, making the offset from the body and his seated position, more like 5ft.
                        That gives a seated to body distance of 5.83ft, or almost 1.8m. My, what a long handle you have, Mr Diemschutz!
                        As he specifically stated that he had a barrow like a Costermongers, drawn by a pony and we can see one of these in the image posted by Dave I can’t see any mystery here I’m afraid. It was obviously much smaller than the one in your video clip and Diemschutz had no problem prodding at the corpse with the handle of his whip.

                        Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 01-03-2020, 12:43 PM.
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                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Fair chance the "whip" was actually a stick.

                          Ponies will shy around obstacles,leaving plenty of room to jump down.

                          He was driving on the right and would have been seated on the right.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm not entirely sure what the point being made here is?
                            Diemschutz returns to the yard after unsuccessfully searching for a P.C.
                            He immediately begins detailed observation of Stride, and of those tending to her.
                            Are club members, constables and doctors standing between Stride's body and the cart, as Diemschutz himself had been (twice), several minutes prior, or has pony and cart been "left" in the stabling area? This is not an unreasonable question - especially for a cadet.
                            The word 'left' in this context, implies unsecured. This would be an odd thing for Diemschutz to do, given that after several minutes he goes into the club to continue with 'duties' (what duties? - he was only in the yard to drop off goods). His goods are still in the cart, and he should secure these, but he doesn't. Why?
                            Well apparently because he is more interested in the activities around Stride, ascertaining her personal appearance, and observing the contents of each of her hands. This is achieved in near darkness and behind other people - somehow.
                            Diemschutz also claims to have been body searched in this approximately 10 minute period, something that could have take up a substantial chunk of those 10 minutes if he had to "wait his turn". So when did Diemschutz actually do the "leaving" of pony and cart, out the back?
                            Current descriptions are all too vague on this point, for my liking, and frankly I don't see the point of being "reasonable" toward Diemschutz. He claims to have discovered a dead body, so why not take a ruthless approach in pinning him and his story right down?

                            Now the issue is that his whips too long or he was too far away or something?
                            Too short, unless he lands precisely next to her, with little or no gap between body and cart. Enormous odds against.

                            Are you implying that Diemschutz killed Liz, a la Charles Lechmere, and made a poor cover story about finding the body?
                            Maybe not the killer himself, but at the very least, one of the Juwes who will not be blamed for nothing.
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi NBFN, welcome to Casebook.
                              Thank you.

                              Diemschutz is quoted as saying:

                              I drove into the yard. Both gates were open - wide open.
                              That sounds like there is an element of surprise - as though wide open were not the normal position at 1AM.

                              I can’t see this as any better ‘timing’ than Lechmere finding Nichols or Davis finding Chapman?
                              Mentioning that he arrived "exactly at one am" seems excessively precise, and coincidental. How did he remember anyway, after the supposed shock of finding a dead body that he initially thought could be his wife? It's more likely a detail he would have forgotten.

                              By the way, has the ~90 minute journey time been checked?
                              Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 01-03-2020, 02:12 PM.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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