Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[drstrange169]

>> Another lie in bold above, all other witness accounts have only the left hand gate open. Its why Liz wasnt visible from the street, she was behind it, and we have corroberation for that to have been the normal case by prior witness observations on other nights.<<


Ummm ...

"I went into the yard, and noticed that the gates were opened." William Wess

"I saw nothing on the ground. The gates were thrown wide back. Morris Eagle

"I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." The young women meeting her sweetheart as reported in the Echo.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> Blackwell is referring to the general area around the body.
Johnson is referring to the gutter, in which blood is streaming from the neck down to the door.
On that interpretation, the trodden in blood is intriguing.<<

All club members were checked and found to be free of blood, so we know it was not any of them, which leaves Johnston or one of the early arriving policemen as the likely culprit.

Nobody can serious believe that bloody footprints leading towards the body from the street is something people as experienced as Phillips and Reid would have ignored.

Don't you mean?...

All club members on site were checked and found to be free of blood...

A couple of others had ducked off to Mitre Square.
Who knows what other precautions were taken? Shoes off?

Suppose Stride is placed on a blanket, throat is cut, and then blanket is lifted closer to to death position.
As the blanket is lifted at each corner, the body weight causes the blanket to sag in the middle (obviously).
The sagging causes the legs to bend at the knees - precisely the position she then remains in.
The position of the gate more or less explains the oblique angle of the body to the wall.
Ref: https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...isherman2.html

As the body is lifted via blanket, some blood seeps through and lands on the ground.
The blood is unintentionally walked on.
However, there are no footprints leading up to the body. It's not as simple as that - feet movement is "all over the place".

What my scenario can't account for (so far) is the blood on the right hand and wrist.
The best I can come up with at this stage is;

1. Stride is lifted off blanket
2. Arms are (or had been) folded across chest - this facilitates rolling
3. Stride is rolled over onto her left side - left arm is then pinned under body, but right arm remains free
4. Stride - grimly hanging onto life - instinctively moves her right hand to her neck
5. Blood smears the back of her hand and wrist
6. Hand is moved back by one of the men
7. No further movement of arm

For further inspiration, I may have to wait for Liz to come to me in a dream...

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

10 pages and counting...
We've only got ourselves to blame. I was hooked from page 1. Oh, the shame.

[DJA]

Early favorite for The Pierre Cup 2020.

[drstrange169]

Time to enjoy the weekend!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

10 pages and counting...
We've only got ourselves to blame. I was hooked from page 1. Oh, the shame.

I have more threads in store and I shant quit writing them till I do get buckled

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I have more threads in store and I shant quit writing them till I do get buckled

Got to keep a good sense of humour about it.

[DJA]

Oh crikey,Monty Python like cartoons of several jews and a blanket shuffling between murder sites

[DJA]

Got to keep a good sense of humour about it.

Got me a case of the humors from this thread

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Oh crikey,Monty Python like cartoons of several jews and a blanket shuffling between murder sites

Puts me in mind of The Spanish Inquisition sketches, but with a gang of anarchist Jews jumping out of the shadows shouting "no one expects Jack The Ripper!"

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Oh crikey,Monty Python like cartoons of several jews and a blanket shuffling between murder sites

The blanket is a modest improvement on the flying carpet, if I don't say so myself

[DJA]

Time to enjoy the weekend!

Hope it's cold and wet.

[drstrange169]

Got soaking wet catching the train home, hopefully the rain will move on somewhere useful.

[DJA]

Oops.

Sorry about that Chief.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>Especially the right. Left hand also has to cover the mouth.<<

So we are looking for a three handed man, that shouldn't have been to hard to find.

You still haven't explained why there were no thumb marks on Mrs Stride's back.

However, Dr. Phillips description is perfect in sync with somebody grabbing her from the front. The fingers bruising the shoulders whilst the opposing thumbs bruised just under the collar bone. The exact span of a hand.

I don't think there is "perfect sync".
An open hand can't exert a lot of pressure through both thumb and fingers simultaneously, and even if it could, wouldn't the bluish discoloration look just like that?

Dr Phillips: Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under colar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since.

There is something about this bluish discoloration that has Dr Phillips puzzled, or at the very least curious.
Having said that, you're missing my point anyway, and that is; someone(s) are holding Stride while the scarf is tied very tightly around her neck.
I cannot say for sure if there are 2 or 3 people involved (just as you can't say anything about the scarf), but it's not super relevant anyway.
Furthermore, it would seem to be you who requires a suspect with three arms - two to produce the apparent bruising, and one to cut the throat.

WANTED: Three armed bandit, suspected of killing women in the Whitechapel area.
Goes by the name of Jake the Ripper

>> ... a man could clench the arms of a woman the size of Liz Stride, and still be able to press thumbs into collar bone region<<

In which case there would be bruising to the arms or wrists.

Open palms holding Liz's arms against her body are not going to cause bruising.

>>Did Schwartz actually hear choked screams?
I know he sees a woman talking to a man, but maybe it just looked like that from a distance, in the darkness.<<

What Schwartz definitely didn't see, was a group of men, a blanket and a pony and cart!

What is becoming evident to me, is that Ripperologists place too much weight on nighttime eyewitness accounts.
My suggestion that Schwartz heard choked screaming was very speculative, but you seem to want to take him very seriously, even though:

• eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable
• the events recalled are at nighttime, and there is no modern lighting
• his account is 3rd-hand
• his account is translated
• he is a actor in the scene - not just a passive observer

No, Schwartz didn't see 3 men. Maybe two were obscured by building and/or gate, and not visible in the darkness of the lane. You know, that same dark area that JtR supposedly hides from Diemschutz, at a closer distance.
No, he doesn't see a blanket on the ground across the road, just like he doesn't observe the smoothness of the cobblestones.
No, he doesn't see a pony and cart, because the nightwatchman chases him away before it arrives!

>>Cutting along the line of the scarf would I think, require the cutter to be in front or above her.<<

So he was left handed?

Why did he have to deliberately cut exactly along the scarf line? What was the point of that?

Isn't there a far more logic answer that explains just about everything?

Left-handedness had occurred to me. Having skimmed Casebook content on this subject, I'm not sure how important this might be though.

Not sure about the reason for the precise cut, but that is for everyone to answer (it happened).
Let me see what I can come up with (particularly given how much everyone is enjoying this thread!).

The Diemschutz Interrupted the Killer Theory requires split-second timing, and is full of logical flaws and verbal contradictions.

>>Grab her front and back, restraining arms and covering mouth (or stuffing it with a sock)<<

Disproved by the forensic evidence and Schwartz's if he is to be believed.

Covered above, but how JtR managed to restrain, keep quiet, and cut the throat of at least 4 of the C5, is obviously a massive question.

>>Cachous packet falls to ground, and is picked up by a man (don't won't to muddy the evidence)<<

Dr Blackwell split the cachous, you really have to start reading the evidence.

The evidence I am working off:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

So some of the cachous is scattered around, some in the gutter, and some (more or less) in Stride's left hand.
We need a theory compatible with all 3 locations!

Sorry, but the rest just isn't worth commenting on. We've gone from ponies covered in blood to blankets in the street.

The cachous, lack of blood spray, tight scarf, bluish discoloration, body position and other elements of the puzzle, all need to be explained by a sequence of events that do not contradict each other, or any of the known facts and high-probables.
That's difficult! The blanket is just my first attempt at reconciling everything, without introducing anything outlandish.
Apart from the blanket itself, it just requires a few lads from the club, and good sharp knife from the kitchen.
However, this is not my "Lock it in Eddie" answer to the puzzle!

Time to move on folks, nothing to see here.

You Interuptionists are right to be worried!

One more thing; you keep saying I should read the evidence.
Okay, but what exactly counts as evidence?
Does Abberline's description of Schwartz's translated testimony count as strong evidence?
What about newspaper reports, and how should we rank the reliability of each newspaper of the time?
"The Evidence" is not a clear-cut thing - that's why it's part of what is debated!