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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #111  
Old 09-19-2018, 01:55 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
...
The most mysterious aspects surrounding her death (besides the obvious) are the blood clots on the back of her hand and that blood-stained abrasion under her right arm. I have no good suggestions for either. That the clots were oblong ( as posted here recently) may have been caused by drops of blood off the edge of his blade, dunno.
Hi Robert.

If you look at the testimony of PC Lamb, he makes two interesting comments that may help to explain the blood on the back of her hand.

He said:
"...I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse."

Apparently he held her wrist, so if he had blood on his hands, or fingers, then he was the cause of the blood transfer.

But where would he get the blood from?

He tells us:
"Some of the blood was in a liquid state, and had run towards the kitchen door of the club. A little - that nearest to her on the ground - was slightly congealed."

How would anyone know whether blood was liquid or congealed in total darkness?
Blood looks like oil in the dark, so the only way you can tell is to touch it, put your fingers in it.

The issue of her right hand being stained with blood only came up after PC Lamb had testified, so he was never asked if he had blood on his hands.
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  #112  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:19 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Why would he kill her after being seen by two witnesses?

Because he was a risk taker and thought he'd get away with it, as indeed (if he was the killer) he did.
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  #113  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:21 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Agreed, Observer. If you change attacked to pushed the incident can be seen in a whole different light. Whitechapel was a rough place filled with drunk workingmen. Is it really so far fetched that a woman out by herself late at night right after the pubs closed got hassled a bit by some drunk?

c.d.
Same woman got attacked twice in the space of about 5 minutes by two different men? Not impossible but rather unlikely.
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  #114  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:34 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
yes. if anyone pushes, grabs a hold of, and or throws someone to the ground its actually assault and battery. a crime even! clear as day.


not sure what your fixation on this is CD.
Exactly. An assault is defined, in English law, as the use of violence or the attempt, threat or offer to do so. BS Man assaulted Stride. The only issue is whether or not that assault was such that it killed her. I believe that it was - because I don't recall ever hearing of any individual being assaulted twice in quick succession by two unconnected individuals. If an event is as improbable as that is I'm inclined to believe that it didn't happen so, on the balance of probabilities (for me) BS Man, whoever he was, killed Stride.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-19-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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  #115  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:36 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Same woman got attacked twice in the space of about 5 minutes by two different men? Not impossible but rather unlikely.
Where do you get the five minutes from?
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  #116  
Old 09-19-2018, 03:11 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Where do you get the five minutes from?

I get the about five minutes from the fact that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was about 12.45am and the body was discovered about 1am. That's a total time period of 15 minutes from start to finish. As the putative second assailant got clean away I think about 5 minutes is reasonable for the gap between the end of the first assault and the beginning of a second. That's my line of thought. If you think I'm a long way out, I'd be interested in knowing why.

How long did Blackwell think Stride had been dead when he arrived at 1.16am? (Sorry - don't have my copy of The Ultimate with me but wasn't it about 20 minutes?).
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-19-2018 at 03:16 PM. Reason: To add last line
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  #117  
Old 09-19-2018, 03:50 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
I get the about five minutes from the fact that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was about 12.45am and the body was discovered about 1am. That's a total time period of 15 minutes from start to finish. As the putative second assailant got clean away I think about 5 minutes is reasonable for the gap between the end of the first assault and the beginning of a second. That's my line of thought. If you think I'm a long way out, I'd be interested in knowing why.

How long did Blackwell think Stride had been dead when he arrived at 1.16am? (Sorry - don't have my copy of The Ultimate with me but wasn't it about 20 minutes?).
No your not at all. As a matter of fact your one of the few people on this thread thats any near close in terms of rational thinking. Thank goodness.
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  #118  
Old 09-19-2018, 03:57 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Hi Robert.

If you look at the testimony of PC Lamb, he makes two interesting comments that may help to explain the blood on the back of her hand.

He said:
"...I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse."

Apparently he held her wrist, so if he had blood on his hands, or fingers, then he was the cause of the blood transfer.

But where would he get the blood from?

He tells us:
"Some of the blood was in a liquid state, and had run towards the kitchen door of the club. A little - that nearest to her on the ground - was slightly congealed."

How would anyone know whether blood was liquid or congealed in total darkness?
Blood looks like oil in the dark, so the only way you can tell is to touch it, put your fingers in it.

The issue of her right hand being stained with blood only came up after PC Lamb had testified, so he was never asked if he had blood on his hands.
Well thats possible i guess.
But considering she was the only one known to have a bleeding wound and blood on her, i think the most reasonable way was she got in on herself without some kind of double blood tranfer.

As in her hand goes instinctively to the wound, blood oozes onto her hand.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #119  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Well thats possible i guess.
But considering she was the only one known to have a bleeding wound and blood on her, i think the most reasonable way was she got in on herself without some kind of double blood tranfer.

As in her hand goes instinctively to the wound, blood oozes onto her hand.
If you are startled by a slice to the throat, without thinking you would grab your neck with your hand. Any blood would then be in the palm of the hand. This was stated by Phillips to be on the back of her hand and on her wrist.
More consistent as evidence of transfer from another hand, the wrist is where you feel for the pulse.
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Last edited by Wickerman : 09-19-2018 at 04:57 PM.
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  #120  
Old 09-19-2018, 05:20 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Same woman got attacked twice in the space of about 5 minutes by two different men? Not impossible but rather unlikely.
Swanson, when making reference to the time between the assault and the body being discovered wrote:
".....the murderous action would I think be a question of so many minutes, five at least, ten at most, so that I respectfully submit it is not clearly proved that the man that Schwartz saw is the murderer, although it is clearly the more probable of the two"

Which was supplemented with a footnote (by Lushington?), which reads in part:
"...But the suggestion is that Schwartz' man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted or was accosted by another man, & there was time enough for this to take place & for this other man to murder her before 1.0"
Ultimate, pp.123/4.

As long as these sentiments are expressed by officials then modern students of the case should keep them in mind as viable solutions.
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