Bnp

[Limehouse]

"and the single currency has been a disaster and we have John Major to thanks for not signing us up to that. "

Don't forget Gordon Brown.

Indeed. A much misunderstood politician.

[Spitfire]

Don't forget Gordon Brown.

Why not? Everyone else has.

[Robert]

Ah but he did do one thing, and that was, he kept us out of the single currency.

[bolo]

The Euro currency is not the problem, it's the EU parliament with its delusions of total control over every bleedin' aspect of our lives that makes things unnecessarily difficult.

I'm a supporter of the European idea but definitely not a centralized EU government.

[Robert]

But Bolo, that IS the European idea.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Let's actually clarify a few points. It was the Tory party, under Heath, who lead us into Europe in 1973. The Labour Party as a whole supported membership and in 1975 it was Wilson, Labour Prime Minister, who offered the British people a referendum on whether to stay in Europe. Some left-wingers, such as the late Tony Benn, and most Trade Union leaders, opposed EU membership. So, there was some left-wing opposition but in no way can it be claimed that 'the British left' as a whole opposed membership.

As a left-winger myself, I have mixed feelings. I think immigration is an issue that is being used to hide deeper underlying economic problems with causes external to our membership of the EU. I think a lot of EU money has been mismanaged, particularly in some EU countries, and the single currency has been a disaster and we have John Major to thanks for not signing us up to that.

As far as UKIP is concerned, if you dig a little deeper into their policies, there are some worrying plans. For example, they want to end all green taxes and solar/wind power subsidies and develop shale gas - they are careful not to use the word 'fracking'. Anyone concerned about the environment will worry about that. They also want to end inheritance tax. They have ambitions to 'end political correctness' - I am not sure how that can be achieved as it is difficult to define what political correctness even is let alone legislate against it.

The topic of this thread is 'BNP' and it is worth noting that Nick Griffin, the BNP leader, lost his MEP seat - but the continuous rise of the far-right in France and other parts of Europe is something to worry about.

That's a disservice to the meaning of the word clarification.

Ted Heath took Britain into a European common market, which is an entirely different concept to the European super-state - for reasons that shouldn't need to be laid out.

And, Tony Benn was very pro European Union, and very much pro European centralised government. What he didn't like was the undemocratic nature of appointing commissioners and wanted to see two houses along American lines. Either way, he was drawn to the idea of a central European government hook, line and sinker.

I would agree with you that you can't end 'political correctness' as you're starting to get into the realms of telling people what to think and that is the whole point of getting out of the European Union who, with their over-bearing nature, would love to have us all think the same. But, I do agree with UKIP that political correctness is not far off censorship and the definition of totalitarianism is censorship.

And, the left opposed the EU in droves. They overwhelmingly voted against membership in 1975.

[bolo]

But Bolo, that IS the European idea.

No. I'm talking about the European idea of a community of nations who know and value eachother as good neighbours.

However, the European reality in Brussels and Strasbourg is little more than an industry-controlled farce of levelling down each nation in order to create markets. They don't give a damn on the European idea.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The Euro currency is not the problem, it's the EU parliament with its delusions of total control over every bleedin' aspect of our lives that makes things unnecessarily difficult.

I'm a supporter of the European idea but definitely not a centralized EU government.

What is the European idea, Bolo?

From where I'm standing it is the erosion of nation states and the promotion of one European government.

And, economics is very much a problem for England because our economy is structured differently to the rest of Europe, and actually we'd quite like control over inflation and interest rates.

And, come to think of it foreign policy because we're tied in with the US. It's served us pretty well over the last 100 years and to be frank they've been a better bet than Europe: don't fix what's not broken.

[Fleetwood Mac]

No. I'm talking about the European idea of a community of nations who know and value eachother as good neighbours.

This doesn't make any sense. I like Germany. Always made to feel welcome there. I have respect for Germany's history particularly as I studied British and German history at university. You are good neighbours.

But, why does this mean we have to share a government? It's like saying the bloke up the street is a canny fella so let's share a house with him and kick the missus out who's served me well over the years.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever. This whole idea that you have to have the same government to maintain good relations is ludicrous and scare-mongering.

[Limehouse]

And, the left opposed the EU in droves. They overwhelmingly voted against membership in 1975.

Could you clarify what/who you mean by 'the left'? If you mean 'the left' of the electorate, well 67% of those who voted, voted to stay in. If you mean 'the left' of the Labour Party, the majority of front benchers were in favour. As I have already pointed out, many leading Trade Union leaders and members were anti EU - but they did not affect the result of the referendum - so di they refrain from voting?

Tony Benn most certainly was not Pro European Union:


"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation." On joining the European Community

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that." On leaving the European Community

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it." On democracy in Europe http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26575258

[bolo]

This doesn't make any sense. I like Germany. Always made to feel welcome there. I have respect for Germany's history particularly as I studied British and German history at university. You are good neighbours.

But, why does this mean we have to share a government? It's like saying the bloke up the street is a canny fella so let's share a house with him and kick the missus out who's served me well over the years.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever. This whole idea that you have to have the same government to maintain good relations is ludicrous and scare-mongering.

I don't want a centralized EU government, just for the record.

What I'm talking about is an European idea as a consequence of WW1 and 2. Parts of the hostility among European states beginning from the early days of the 20th century until the end of WW2 came from the fact that they simply didn't talk to eachother and let their nationalistic nonsense run amuck. I'm all for being friends but not sharing a single currency or letting a bunch of politicians in early retirement in Brussels and Strasbourg tell us how we have to live.

So - Yes to Europe as a continent of nations who cultivate good relationships with eachother but no to centralism of any kind.

Hope I made myself clear with this.

Boris

[Fleetwood Mac]

I don't want a centralized EU government, just for the record.

What I'm talking about is an European idea as a consequence of WW1 and 2. Parts of the hostility among European states beginning from the early days of the 20th century until the end of WW2 came from the fact that they simply didn't talk to eachother and let their nationalistic nonsense run amuck. I'm all for being friends but not sharing a single currency or letting a bunch of politicians in early retirement in Brussels and Strasbourg tell us how we have to live.

So - Yes to Europe as a continent of nations who cultivate good relationships with eachother but no to centralism of any kind.

Hope I made myself clear with this.

Boris

Very clear, but this is exactly the sentiment which is misguided, historically inaccurate and shows the European Union to be the utter farce it is. It has supported for many wrong reasons but none more so than the idea that it will prevent nationalism and hostility.

WW1 started because the Russians and French refused to accept what were reasonable demands on the part of the Austrians. Mlada Bosna were sponsored by the Serbian government. It was an act of terrorism when they shot the heir to the Austrian throne. Not too dissimilar to what happened in New York, except the American response was far more stern than the Austrian one. The Russians supported their neighbours out of some misplaced Slav brotherhood and the French supported the Russians out of economic reasons - they were tied together through bonds.

This is why it was generally felt in England that the Treaty of Versailles was harsh and so was the War Guilt Clause which was never intended to be in the treaty, except the Americans, who were originally concerned with a just peace, realised they couldn't get the money back they'd loaned Britain who'd passed much of it onto France because the French had none. The only way the Americans could get their money back was by getting it from Germany and this meant the War Guilt Clause had to be inserted into the treaty and this wasn't conceived until 1919.

The German delegates who walked up the steps into the conference were not prepared for the severity of the treaty. They were gobsmacked but had no option to sign. And, as said earlier, this is why the British government did not oppose the Germans taking the Rhineland back. To The British the Rhineland was German anyway and had been unjustly taken from them.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. But no one envisaged a war in 1914. It came as a bolt out of the blue and wasn't caused by nations wanting to kill one another but by terrorism and a ridiculous decision on the part of the Russians which at that point because of binding treaties and economic ties meant it escalated far beyond what it should have been.

[Robert]

Hi Boris

I'm all for countries talking to each other and having good relations.

I'm afraid the Press tends to use misleading expressions, calling someone "anti-Europe" when the person is simply anti-EU.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Could you clarify what/who you mean by 'the left'? If you mean 'the left' of the electorate, well 67% of those who voted, voted to stay in. If you mean 'the left' of the Labour Party, the majority of front benchers were in favour. As I have already pointed out, many leading Trade Union leaders and members were anti EU - but they did not affect the result of the referendum - so di they refrain from voting?

Tony Benn most certainly was not Pro European Union:


"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation." On joining the European Community

"My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners but I am in favour of democracy. I think they are building an empire and want us to be part of that empire, and I don't want that." On leaving the European Community

"When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it." On democracy in Europe http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26575258

Yes, for clarity: the Labour membership which voted 2-1 to discontinue
EEC membership. I think the Labour membership is a better yardstick for 'the left' than a few leaders.

I'll give you that perhaps Tony Benn started out not wanting membership but he changed his tune at some point. I have a collection of his essays in front of me, supporting EU membership providing it was democratic as opposed to appointing commissioners.

[Robert]

Hi FM

If you think Versailles was harsh, what about the German-imposed Brest-Litovsk?