Bnp

[Robert]

Not to mention the Irish in WW1, the Northern Irish in WW2, and even some of the Southern Irish in WW2.

[Sam Flynn]

Not to mention the Irish in WW1, the Northern Irish in WW2, and even some of the Southern Irish in WW2.

Indeed, Robert. I was just referring to the inhabitants of this island, not our brethren on the big island next door

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm sure you are right, BUT do recognize that many of the same arguments as to why it would never happen in England were applied to why it would never happen in Jazz Age Germany.

Errata,

Stop at that point and consider the history of your own country and the history of Germany.

There are a multitude of reasons why it happened on continental Europe and why it would never happen in England, the United States, Australia or Canada.

One is the English Bill of Rights, and go back farther to forerunning ideas of liberty. The other, and the main factor, is geography.

Germany is a fascinating country. Read about it. Read about 'the land in the middle', and how it bore people inherently inward looking, and read about England and the United States: inherently outward looking, commercial nations with a large middle class.

You may find that the middle class in Germany didn't have the avenues that we did in England and it led to what they called: "High Kultur". It is absolutely no coincidence that Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger and associates were Germans or near Germanic neighbours. It is a peculiar country with a peculiar history.

That is not to say that I believe Germans are somehow predisposed to genocide - that's not the case at all. But, they do have a certain geography which ultimately led to certain ideas.

[Fleetwood Mac]

"Give or take", my arse. My people, and the Scots, have fought and died for this "island nation" of ours as well.

I know. I just knew there'd be a Taff or a Jock knocking about who would take the bait.

I have a Scottish Grandmother but most of my ancestors are Cornish via Wales. I'm from the County Durham coalfields which was very sparsely populated until coal was mined and then heaving with Welsh, Irish, Cornish among others.

And, I'm fully aware of the part played by the Taffs and the Jocks in the history of Britain. I have no animosity toward either: it's just that I'm English not British.

[Robert]

Errata, there is no definition of who is British, least of all a piece of paper with "I am British" stamped on it. There are places on the internet where people can purchase Lordships of Manors. Buying one of these doesn't make you a Lord. The question of nationhood is a matter of accepting and being accepted. If a people won't accept another people, then the other people is not of the same nation. They may have all the rights and duties that comes with being a citizen but they are not the same people. It's the same the other way round. If newcomers don't see themselves as part of the host nation, then they won't be part of it, however welcoming the host nation may be. Of course, with the passing of generations the descendants of people who were formerly not accepted may come to be accepted. It's an unpredictable process.

Every nation has quotas, including Israel. If it didn't, it would cease to exist, because Arabs would simply emigrate to Israel until they outnumbered the Jews, then vote to expel the Jews (or worse).

The Nazis didn't turn back the clock far enough. Best would have been a pre-1971 Germany of little states, before the creation of the superstate that has caused so much trouble in the world. I think it's no coincidence that the other fascist state that disturbed the peace of Europe (Italy) was also a new country formed from several older ones. I wish people would stop worshipping states.

[Robert]

Hi FM

Not quite sure what point you are making about the philosophers. Nietzsche was staunchly pro-Jewish, and Freud was Jewish. Heidegger apparently was a Nazi supporter (at least in the early days).

[Sam Flynn]

One is the English Bill of Rights

Didn't the 1689 Bill of Rights covered the "give or take" nations of Britain as well?

and go back farther to forerunning ideas of liberty.

Like the Laws of Hywel Dda, prince of Dyfed, in the 10th Century?

That is not to say that I believe Germans are somehow predisposed to genocide - that's not the case at all. But, they do have a certain geography which ultimately led to certain ideas.

Some of the greatest ideas, and the most magnificent expressions of human creativity, in the history of civilisation, in fact. Is it too fanciful to suggest that some of this was passed down to us, via the Hanoverian and Saxe-Coburg monarchs who have so recently graced the British throne?

[Sam Flynn]

And, I'm fully aware of the part played by the Taffs and the Jocks in the history of Britain. I have no animosity toward either: it's just that I'm English not British.

Well, good news, the English live on this "island nation" of Britain, too. England forms a large part of that island, of course, but it is not "the" island, so please don't refer to the island as such. We are - to coin a phrase - all in this together

[Fleetwood Mac]

You Brits seem like nice people. I like you as a rule. But you do have a streak of exclusionism a mile wide, and that's a problem. I have noticed that the idea of social evolution in your country is considered bad. Evolution isn't necessarily better than the old way, just what is needed to survive. But historically, the most extreme groups are the ones who want to turn back the clock. Even if they identify themselves as moderate. For example many countries stay in the EU and retain a very personal identity. France for instance. If Britain cannot be in the EU and still be British, that's not necessarily a sign that the EU is contradictory to British identity. It may be that the British identity is no longer strong enough to withstand outside influence. And the solution to that isn't isolationism. It's forging a new identity.

It's a myth.

First off, we're not nice.

Secondly, we have an entirely different history to continental Europe. We think differently. Now, when we sit down at the table with the rest of Europe we're pretty much always going to be in the minority opinion and in that situation it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner and we're on the menu.

There's absolutely no reason why we can't maintain good relations with our European neighbours while being independent which means we can decide when and where it is a good time to sit down at the table and negotiate.

The French Tourist Board once wrote: "The English are inherently conservative and insular", which to me should tell you a lot about France considering our history. Christ, Voltaire learned everything he knew from England.

I'm neither racist nor sexist nor homophobic nor anything, I mean as far as I'm concerned I wouldn't bat an eyelid if two muslim lesbians were in a 69 in the middle of the street at midday. I'd probably take a moment to have a look but I'd soon gather myself and continue onto work with a cup of tea and forget about it.

But, do I think our ideas are better than the French or German equivalent? Undoubtedly. History has proven this point. We don't kill our citizens because they are different.

It is not xenophobic or even patriotic to want England to retain its independence: it's sensible.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

Not quite sure what point you are making about the philosophers. Nietzsche was staunchly pro-Jewish, and Freud was Jewish. Heidegger apparently was a Nazi supporter (at least in the early days).

Nietzsche was certainly not pro-Jewish. He didn't appreciate Wagner's anti-Semitism but that was because Wagner was stepping into the bounds of group behaviour. He was neither pro Jewish, nor anti-Jewish. He was very much a do it for yourself person who despised any kind of group behaviour, religion included (in fact, religion more so than anything but it just happened that he had his sights set on Christianity for personal reasons). For example, he renounced his German citizenship.

The point is that all of those people were consumed with an introspective disposition.

And, yes, Heidegger was the philosophical spokesman of the Nazi Party. Not really anti Jewish, but certainly consumed with Volk and a peculiarly German form of Conservatism which appealed to Hitler (Lebensraum).

[Robert]

Nietzsche admired the Jews and despised anti-semitism. Yes he disapproved of anything that smacked of the herd. I think he had a soft spot for Jesus ("noble enough was he to recant") and the Hebrew prophets ("to these even the Greeks could have gone to school").

[Fleetwood Mac]

Nietzsche admired the Jews and despised anti-semitism. Yes he disapproved of anything that smacked of the herd. I think he had a soft spot for Jesus ("noble enough was he to recant") and the Hebrew prophets ("to these even the Greeks could have gone to school").

Not really sure why Nietzsche would have admired any particular group of people or despised any particular belief. As far as I can tell he was concerned with coming to your own conclusion, and his problem with Wagner was Wagner's status that he was creating for himself and being followed by others, i.e. the admiration adorned upon him. And, yes, Christianity was in his sights and the principle of pity rather than any individual but I think seeing virtue in changing a point of view was a product of his own life path.

[Cogidubnus]

Sod you lot...I'm Sussex by the Sea, born and bred...anyone north of Haslemere's a bloody foreigner...in fact I'm bloody dubious of anyone north of Midhurst...

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

G'day Dave

I'm safe then I'm well south of anywhere in UK.

[Robert]

Hey Dave, you only got your palace from those bloody foreign Romans.

FM, I think Nietzsche viewed anti-semitism as a symptom of weakness and resentment - a sort of "well at least I can feel superior to them " attitude. Nietzsche advocated power but it wasn't the power of the State or the jackboot. It was basically the power of self-control. But of course in order to have self-control, one needs something within oneself to control. Hence his strictures against Christianity, which wants pureness of heart : "the spiritualisation of sensuality is called love. It is a great triumph over Christianity." It's a sort of dualism, with the Dionysian controlled by the Apollinian but driving it ever higher. "Of all evil I deem you capable. Therefore I want the good from you. Verily I have often laughed at the weaklings who think themselves virtuous because they have no claws."

He wasn't opposed to pity as such, but disapproved of it when it actually harmed the people to whom it was directed, or constantly distracted the pity-giver from pursuing his own life.